The Islamist Threat and American Immigration

[Philip]

The liberal progressive mindset seems to mostly be that UNTIL a threat is PROVEN true, time and again, until it is actually UPON us, that then and only THEN should we be highly concerned or willing to do something about it. I well understand their revulsion to war, the stupid and avoidable actions that often precipitate pointless wars. But I also realize that being proactive in policy and preparation is extremely important. Realists understand the necessity to plan for anticipated threats and that emotional, wishful thinking that our enemies can be reasoned with, that their fears only need to be massaged, that we merely need to adjust our posturing and reach out to them with positives, is very naive thinking. Many thought the same after Germany invaded Poland. Hitler could have been stopped (and EASILY), much, MUCH sooner - and BEFORE the Holocaust, before Europe was decimated, all of that nightmare.

Particularly, as it comes to the Islamic terrorism and the threat, we now see that France is a major target and is very vulnerable. They've let untold amounts of Muslims not only settle there, but also vast numbers of refugees from Muslim lands. This has made them extremely vulnerable, and the terror attacks show this to be the case. The large terror attacks in France are likely to continue and proliferate. Germany is likely soon to follow these terrors - also with other largest population of Muslims.

My questions are for those who assert that the alarm and concern in America over letting in vast numbers of Muslims in are just unwarranted, right-wing alarmist talk, or that the CURRENT reality shows the concern to be just right-wing nonsense:

PLEASE ANSWER: At what point, or what level of threat or terrible events, would it take for you to think that greatly restricting or even eliminating immigration of Muslims from areas of Sharia law or known to have Islamist sympathies? Do you think France should do that now? Do you not think the bombings and terrorism in France will eventually greatly increase? And why do you think we are not taking a risk by NOT greatly curbing immigration now, and BEFORE those known to be currently plotting and communicating (with wannabe types) or those already here, are able to infiltrate us with very dangerous people and facilitate bombings and terror, and is it one worth continuing to take? Why should we not eliminate the risk to its absolute minimum NOW? Should ANYONE known to have beliefs based upon Sharia law not immediately be turned away? Why or why not? And if we were to get to the point that France has (or WORSE), would we not be in a FAR more difficult and dangerous situation, and FAR less able to eliminate the threat? What should they do NOW? What should they have done BEFORE? Do you not realize that we don't have to hate or despise Muslims to also want to reasonably make ourselves as least vulnerable to where the certain or at least potential and known threats lie? These are very important questions to ask - Please Explain!

America has LONG let in more people from around the world than almost any other country. We can't afford to adequately meet the needs of our own deserving poor. Many that come here end up on assistance. Why should we further burden our systems (and that would not just apply to Muslims, BTW) AND also risk that bringing large numbers of Muslims here might well have great, very dangerous future consequences?

[Philip]

I'm rather disappointed that no one answered the questions in my post - as the silence is obvious.

I sincerely want to know as to WHEN, upon what conditions, would people who think Muslim immigration (particularly, in large numbers and/or from areas of Sharia law or known areas frequented by extremists), when should we IMMEDIATELY take MUCH more proactive measures (eliminating most Muslim immigration - particularly from key areas of extremism and Muslim beliefs)? WHY do they think we shouldn't be highly concerned, given the ever-increasing events we see in Europe, WHY should we even take such risks, WHY should we continue to allow people to come here who have beliefs that are in great conflict with democracy, and how and why do they think we could back up if they are WRONG about the dangers, if they become obvious with continuous future terrorist attacks? Why do they think the genie can be put back in the bottle, once out? Because IF they are wrong, this would be virtual suicide by emotion-driven policies, that COULD have been prevented. And we may ALREADY be far more vulnerable than we realize, NOW. Really, I'd just like to hear some specific answers to my questions, other than the usual, "this is all just "right-wing fear-mongering, as their is no real danger!" What I am asking about is not what is necessarily HAPPENING NOW, but what terrorism our policies might well facilitate or make far easier in the future, and how could you ever reverse it if that began to happen? Deport millions? What?

Also, there's a real question that Turkey's recent events illustrate only so well - Egypt as well. Democracy is great. But if you have enough people with certain beliefs (like in Sharia law, Quran-based government), what does that democracy free them to vote for - actually, as the Sharia/Quaranic systems are entirely incompatible with the ideas and values of democracy - DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT AGREE WITH THAT?

Another issue: Culturally, Muslims who detest U.S. values and sensibilities - why should they be allowed to come here? Just because they WANT to? And how can we KNOW? The PC crowd so often just ignores these legitimate concerns as being anti-Muslim (as in being anti-PEOPLE). But the real issue is, should we not be against allowing those here with MUSLIM values that are entirely Quaran or Sharia Law-based? And if the answer is that we SHOULD care about this, then we also should care very much about who is let in, where they are from, and what we can and can't possibly know about them.

Really, I'm just trying to understand the liberal viewpoint on this, particularly as, obviously, if our continued policies begin to produce a nightmare, what THEN? And how would you deal with THAT, and AFTER THE FACT???!!!

[melanie]

Philip the same propaganda that fills the heads of your so called lefty liberals is also in full swing on the other side.
I think those that like to think of themselves as not politically motivated as myself but are honestly trying to navigate themselves, their beliefs, their stances upon a grounded standpoint based upon a humanitarian viewpoint, silence is not necessarily a bad thing.
To be humanitarian is not flying in the face of Christianity, it really is the corner stone of our belief. How we treat others is our religion. And the truth is as far as I see it, people are scared and I don't blame them. It's a scary time.
We know that refugees are really the most vunerable of people. Fleeing war and conditions that we in the West have no way of truly understanding. We all have been raised on the belief that we help the most vulnerable but this idea has turned because of scumbag terrorists. It has placed a ticking time bomb in amongst our most vulnerable. The epitome of those in need has been taken advantage of those that seek to destroy us along with those they exploit.
And then we are left with this ugly ultimation of complete avoidance of all Muslim refugees or some notion of no regard for national welfare and a welcoming mat to any Tom, **** or suicide bomber.
Neither is okay and it shouldn't be.
But politics turns this into a mega game of votes and propaganda where no one is looking at the issues but more interested in sensationalism and vote grabbing through fear and the western media conglomerate where your informed opinions don't actually really matter but rather your viewing choice.
We live in this western bubble of convience when people are suffering. There is a real face to this issue and it doesn't lie in political bullcrap but in the lives of children, women and families.
Yes there is a risk to compassion, to empathy and love. It's not designed to suit a western selfish mentality.
Is that risk too big??
That is why there is silence not just to your post but in our social fabric at the moment. Sure there are loud mouths on either side but the rest of us aren't sure. We want to help but we want to be safe.
Never before in my life have I been soo inclined to think screw politics. It's a dirty game on each side, that is obvious.
What I know is that humans are quick to judge and even quicker to condemn. Look after our own and stamp out any threat.
But who gets caught in the cross fire??
Too many innocent.
That price is too high.
The political barrage of bullcrap that seeks to sway your vote but doesn't give too craps about the people their condemning have long lost my respect.
Refugees are not a political gameplay but real fricken people. We don't have the right to determine who deserves compassion based upon nothing but religion and ethnicity. The hardness of heart that I have seen is deeply troubling. Is is troubling that Islamic extremist want to kill and destroy? Of course!!
When you strip away another's dignity to a point where they no longer matter then a disastrous mindset occurs. This is why terrorists can do what they do because they have chosen to take away the humanity of another.
You don't defeat an enemy by resorting to their tactics because then the line becomes too convoluted.
Love wins
Not because it's some weak, pussy alternative to strength but because it takes balls. Real balls to face fear and chose different.
To not be a puppet to political garbage but take stock of international matters in a mindful matter.
Sometimes silence seems like the better alternative to noise but the opinion of all of us matters.

[RickD]

Let's put this on a level that any mom can understand.

Let's say you have a large house with many rooms that your family owns. You decide to offer some empty rooms to men who have no place to live. Let's say that you are aware of a possibility that one or some of these men prey on young girls. Seeing that you have a young teenage daughter who has her own room in your large house, would it be loving and smart, to allow these men to sleep in the empty rooms, near your daughter?

If you use your better judgement, and don't allow these men to come into your house, you will be called "unloving", and "prejudice", among other things, because while there may be a sexual predator among these men, most are probably not going to rape your daughter.

So, is it unloving to not offer your rooms to these men? You have the means to help them. Surely Christ would want you to help your fellow man, wouldn't he?

Maybe you can just ask these men if they have any intention of harming your daughter. Any who say "no", you will allow in. Surely that's the "loving" thing to do, isn't it?

[B. W.]

It all goes back to the progressive / Marxist narrative that all existing social systems based upon free market, capitalism, limited capitalism, goodness, decency, and common sense are all bad, accept theirs...

So How to bring down existing social orders?

Make such live up to their own standards of rightness, fairness,etc and in doing so have them destruct themselves and their way of life.

The Islamic immigration debate is one such method to do this.

How it is done is by progressive/leftist didactic model.

It uses the concept of teaching the narrative so all sorts of folks parrot the narrative in complete ignorance of the real intent of the modern left. This is done so that no smoking gun can directly found to any leftist group or leader. You have the common folks destroying themselves and some future leftist leader/leaders emerge later to take over and reassert new order after all personal liberties are expunged.

Rick posted the best example concerning how to combat this line of thought.

Lastly, in the USA the Democratic party historically was the slave owning party in the USA. They use a plantation model approach to ensure a perceptual voting block totally depended upon them. So it is not abut free or cheap labor so much as to keep minorities in projects, ghettos, inner cities, and placed together in communities across the USA as slave voters to win elections, that is until they take total control and have no need for minorities anymore.

The ends justify the means to the hardcore leftist in positions of power and they place the migrants in the USA in closed communities to make them swing elections - while pitting goodness against itself to attain its goal of absolute control.

Even the demonic world attempts ensnare and trap God in his own words, actions, character, and deeds and influences some people to be their mouth pieces too. This is a great evil. Destroy goodness in order to impose their evil which they call good upon all.

A group that uses trickery, puts folks in slum areas for an agenda is not a good group/organization no matter their rhetoric... evil seduces...
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[RickD]

Why should my moral choice to protect my family, take a back seat to someone else's moral choice to "show love" to immigrants or whoever?

Why is one person's moral choice more important than another's?

Why am I wrong for making a moral choice to follow my conscience when it tells me to protect my family, others, and myself from a real threat?

[Philip]

Funny thing is, when many who deem certain things an "acceptable, necessary or moral risk," if a similar scenario is applied to their own loved ones and immediate family, their typical response, instead, would be: "NO WAY!!!"

Again, this PC sensibility comes down to numbers - one would think that letting more of this or that immigrant type in is going to make a huge difference. But if you destroy the safety of your own society, how are you going to help ANYONE? And why is it always to help people WE MUST LET THEM COME HERE? We DO have the right and responsibility to make our country as safe as possible. But we sure cannot do BOTH what liberals would assert to be mostly safe and truly be assured of that safety!

Also, people have avoided the other question: Should people who adhere to a religion or hold beliefs (like allegiance to the Sharia Law/wanting that law to ALSO be the law of the land WHEREVER they immigrate to), as this belief is 1) at odds with America's values of democracy and freedom and 2) as if immigrants with such beliefs are allowed to gain legal traction, and with enough supporters, would change the very nature of and be in direct odds with traditional American values and beliefs. Democracy becomes a joke if a country begins to be populated with large numbers of people who would only use their votes to force a different value and legal system based upon their religious views and traditions.

I for one believe that if someone doesn't like the American democratic system or doesn't like it's traditional adherences, values and legal system, THEN DON'T EXPECT TO COME HERE AND ENCOURAGE OR HELP TO FORCE YOUR FAVORED SYSTEM OVER WHAT HAS been in place here going toward 300 years. American's forefathers were wise enough to set up a political system that allowed religious freedoms for all while also not favoring ANY of them, from a legal standpoint - which is the polar opposite of religionists of all stripes - and obviously is in opposition to the beliefs of many Muslims. If you believe in Sharia law or Islamic law, and you have absolutely NO intention of adopting and accepting the wider traditional values that have long been held in America, then YOU DON'T HAVE ANY BUSINESS COMING HERE. Amongst the PC crowd, sometimes you get the idea that they think Muslims are the ONLY refugees we have to choose from. Really, there are just unacceptable risks - both when it comes to ones own family AND to their country and borders! That's only commons sense!

Note that in GOD'S laws, in the Theocracy of ancient Israel, which the LORD set up and instructed, not just anyone was allowed into Israel, and not just any practices or influences by foreigners were allowed. So, was GOD racist? Not compassionate? Why didn't He command for all peoples to be allowed to seek Israel as a refuge, regardless of their beliefs and practices? Because of many dangers - with the mere INFLUENCES and BELIEFS of pagan peoples being a primary concern and warning. Comments please!

[crochet1949]

Maybe -- what 'we' are afraid of is that those who Do come from countries who practice sharia laws Will -- with No hesitancy -- practice that Here. And some already Has been practiced in this country by those who have migrated From. People tend to be Afraid to speak up Too much against what IS happening. And there are those who do Not have this countries' wellbeing as their foremost concern.
God's Word Does tell us that this world is only going to get worse and worse. This country is being Allowed to be infiltrated by various people groups. His Word Also tells us that there is spiritual warfare taking place NOW. And most of it is centered in the Middle Eastern countries. There is a Reason for that. Complex reasons.
Philip -- I Totally Agree with you -- and you are So right about ancient Israel. God was NOT racist -- He created races -- Tower of Babel -- Because the people were determined to Try to find their own way up to God. They all spoke the same language and were all together -- relying on each other and NOT looking to God Who Created Them and this world.
Yes, the mere Influences and Beliefs of 'pagan' peoples being a primary concern for the welfare of His People -- the Children of Israel.
Yes, this country Has taken in refuges and immigrants Who Come Here LEGALLY. That's a Big qualifier. This country was made up OF immigrants. The original people were Indians. "We" tried to Christianize the Indians -- Christianity is Not something to be Forced on Anyone. Other countries / people groups have no problem Forcing belief systems on their people. "convert or Die' and there is no problem for 'them' with killing those who Don't convert.
God's Word Also assures us that this world is Not the final one For Anyone. This world Is a battle ground. God has provided His way for Our 'salvation' from all this mess. We CAN know that if something happens to us this afternoon that we will Immediately be in the presence of Jesus Christ Forever. God's Word tells us there can be no better place than being in His presence. The place called Heaven. God's Word ALSO tells us about another place that No One Wants to end up in.
People say that they don't Want to believe in a 'god' who would Send a person to hell Forever. Well -- no one sends anyone to hell -- it's a choice a person makes. Refusing God has the negative consequence Of..... And then there is the comment about 'what if' ---- well -- 'what if... a person feels an inner compulsion to go talk to someone and share salvation with them and Doesn't do it... .. then God will use someone else to 'get to them with salvation'. God is aware of each person who is on this earth -- He's not going to forget about or over-look someone.
God showed His compassion by sending His Son to the cross For us -- In Our Place to die For us and rise up again For us -- For God so loved the world / you and me/ that He Gave For Us. So What IS Our response?!

[melanie]

Why should my moral choice to protect my family, take a back seat to someone else's moral choice to "show love" to immigrants or whoever?

Why is one person's moral choice more important than another's?

Why am I wrong for making a moral choice to follow my conscience when it tells me to protect my family, others, and myself from a real threat?

It seems my point has been entirely missed. This notion of this great moral standpoint that is backed by either personal opinion, religious persuasion or political viewpoint or some compulsion to protect the social fabric of their family negates this entire issue as some for or against issue with no in between, no middle ground or compromise.
My point being that no matter where a person sides on the matter we are all concerned and scared. The narrative and political just utter garbage that surrounds this issue is entirely obvious by the likes of B.W's post.
The religious superiority that surrounds this issue is obvious in Philips post re Israel. FFS!!! Is anyone really suggesting that the absolute muppets that are politically in play that may have any influence over immigration even have an iota of some 'divine' protection of the West as a comparison to ancient Israel. It's our religious duty to keep our society safe??
This society is corrupt and sick and full of debauchery. To suggest for a second that we need to keep practices out to maintain the innocence and Godliness of the west and most especially in the US is an absolute bloody joke.

We are not talking about fighting ISIS, combating against terror but vilifying an entire section of our community. Every single person who is a refugee regardless of background or religion is part of my race. The human race.
The question was asked what would I do as a mum if the choice came down to protecting my children or helping a potential offender. Would I board up my windows and see every man regardless of innocence suffer outside. Would I let them starve, freeze to death, congregate on my front porch and never risk helping any on the chance that I may jeopardize the safety of my family. But this isn't just about men. It sounds more compelling to make this an issue of men trying to infiltrate the safety of family. They are families.
So how far to do I go?
Do I leave a women weeping?
Do I leave a family on my doorstep?
Do I lock my door on children?
Do I turn away all those in need if they are of a certain religion, a certain race?
Then I tuck my kids up in bed and convince them that their world is a better place due to my prudence in keeping them safe all the while I've let the biggest threat straight into our home the minute I turned away every person in need. Not based on character or first hand opinion but a fear.
So if I was flooded with those that needed help and I knew that there was a possibility that there could be a threat amongst them then yes I would help. I would be vigilant and careful. I would unapologetic in turning away anyone whose character I deemed unfit but I would never, ever protect my own at the expense of the welfare of others.
I don't want my kids to grow up in a world that operates that way because it's ugly. I don't care for some perceived notion of what is and isn't moral because those that pretend to have some monopoly on objective morality are ironically the most subjective when it suits.

What I can say is that from my perspective as a Christian my choice to feed, clothe, care and protect is not limited to my family. If my faith extends so far then it's a faith built on rocky soil. That's what the world portrays 'look after your own'. It's as worldly as it comes.
Protect those you think are worthy, there's nothing Christian about that.
Turn away those in need if there may be a threat.
That is the way of a self indulgent, self serving, self motivated and self centered mentality. Sure it may get you and your own further ahead but that is on the sacrifice of every person you left in need, waiting on your doorstep for help.

So people can have their politics, so twisted on every side. They can have their 'religion' that stinks of hypocrisy and hard heartedness.
And I'll keep teaching myself and my own to include, to sacrifice even when we rather wouldn't, to have a heart that reaches out to help not those that fit the parameter of what and when we think it acceptable but especially the times when we don't.
Anyone can be charitable when it suits them. It's how we act when it doesn't.

Strip all the crap away and what we are left with is how we treat the very least. Jesus said when did you visit me when I was in prison.
Caring, truly caring about those that are guilty. That are threats.
What are we? Pharisees and tax collectors or do we actually follow a savior who taught us the exact opposite of how many are behaving.

[B. W.]

That is why, Mel, we need to discern the times, discern the people - Eccl 3:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 is valid part of the equation.

Be wise...
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[melanie]

Absolutely B.W
And let's make sure it doesn't become Sodom trying to protect itself against Gomorrah when both are entirely acting outside the will of God.

[B. W.]

Absolutely B.W
And let's make sure it doesn't become Sodom trying to protect itself against Gomorrah when both are entirely acting outside the will of God.

Amen

[RickD]

Mel,

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. And I think some of what may seem like a disagreement between us, is just that we're coming at the discussion from two different perspectives.

I guess the only real point I want to make with this whole conversation, is that we as Christians are told to help those who we feel we are lead to help. We should not neglect helping those in need.

With that said, we need to pray for discernment in situations where we have a choice to help someone.

Discernment can be as simple as seeing a homeless man on the street, and deciding if he really needs our help, or if he will just use any money we give him, for drugs.

For reference, I have a giving personality. And some of that has been because of the example of my parents, and some is probably my personality. But since I've made mistakes on who I've given to in the past, and have been taken advantage of, I've become guarded. And instead of giving willy nilly to everyone who seems to want help, I use discernment.

Edit**

Here's a perfect example of why we need to use discernment.
http://youtu.be/LSewCBL4_GQ

[Philip]

Again, God did not instruct Israel to accept just anyone with any beliefs or practices to come in their midst. Much the opposite. But we're to believe we should take massive risks with policies. That's not the example we have in Scripture. But we DO have an example of how to deal with those already around us, and missions to those not. But what really gets me mad is people would have me to believe that open immigration policies for people that we can't possibly validate the safety of bringing here, is safe or reasonable. Or that just because the danger seems rather low NOW, that our policies won't produce disaster LATER! And, people who assert we should just be open bleeding hearts without massive discernment, need to explain how they would back up if things got really bad. You open certain doors, you might be able to later slam them shut, but, by then, what terrors are already in the room with you?

To me, this is not an either show compassion or not issue, but one of using tremendous discernment and caution.