Evidence for God from Science

Those who identify as non-believers, what do you see as the most powerful arguments for God's existence that you've seen? Second to that, what do you see as the least powerful arguments? Please be open and honest both ways.

Kurieuo wrote:Those who identify as non-believers, what do you see as the most powerful arguments for God's existence that you've seen? Second to that, what do you see as the least powerful arguments? Please be open and honest both ways.

The most powerful argument I can think of in support of God is the fact that so many people believe in him.
The least powerful argument I can think of in support of God is the claim that those who believe are morally superior to those who do not.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Those who identify as non-believers, what do you see as the most powerful arguments for God's existence that you've seen? Second to that, what do you see as the least powerful arguments? Please be open and honest both ways.

The most powerful argument I can think of in support of God is the fact that so many people believe in him.
The least powerful argument I can think of in support of God is the claim that those who believe are morally superior to those who do not.

Ken

Kenny,

I would agree with you on the first argument being a good argument for the existence of God. And I've known quite a few Christians who think that they are morally superior to, or better than non-believers. And I can tell you that with me, especially while I was younger, it completely turned me off of certain churches where there were quite a few people like that.

Good points!

The least powerful argument I can think of in support of God is the claim that those who believe are morally superior to those who do not.

That would only make sense IF there was a claim that God makes people morally superior.
Not if people BELIEVED it mind, no, but if God MAKES people morally superior.
Then THAT god would not exist if people were NOT morally superior.

a) If God exists then He makes people morally superior
b) People are morally superior
C) Therefore God exists

And if people are not morally superior then God doesn't exist.

Unfortunately, there is NO such argument made for God existing, actually the contrary.

The correct argument would be:
A) If God exists it is because people need a moral compass
b) People need a moral compass
c) Therefore God exists.

Ken: The least powerful argument I can think of in support of God is the claim that those who believe are morally superior to those who do not.

Ken, Paul kind of beat me to it - but that is TRUE! But anyone claiming such doesn't know what God says about that in Scripture. We are, to a one, in God's eyes, all pathetic, immoral trainwrecks. EVERY Christian sins - sometimes terribly. God used Believers with all kinds of moral baggage, throughout Scripture, to do His will. But POSITIONALLY, and ONLY speaking of believers, God views all of us, NOW, not as the miserable people we often are, but as ALL believers ONE DAY WILL BE - transformed, sinless, and not guilty. So what's the difference? Of course, the ONLY difference is that God's grace and forgiveness has been applied as a ransom/substitution, via Christ's shed blood on the Cross, and applied to cleanse believers of their guilt, through our faith in Christ. That's it! That is ALL. So simple! Christians are not any better than any other sinner, as to our morality, as compared to others, and certainly not as compared to a sinless God. Of course, daily, we are to strive to be more like Christ, and only succeeding where HE enables such growth and change.

The least powerful argument I can think of in support of God is the claim that those who believe are morally superior to those who do not.

PaulSacramento wrote: That would only make sense IF there was a claim that God makes people morally superior.
Not if people BELIEVED it mind, no, but if God MAKES people morally superior.
Then THAT god would not exist if people were NOT morally superior.

Philip wrote:
Ken, Paul kind of beat me to it - but that is TRUE! But anyone claiming such doesn't know what God says about that in Scripture.

Perhaps that's why I find it the least powerful argument in support of God.

Ken

Ken: The least powerful argument I can think of in support of God is the claim that those who believe are morally superior to those who do not.

This is a common presuppositional myth atheist have in order to support their own moral superiority..

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B. W. wrote:

Ken: The least powerful argument I can think of in support of God is the claim that those who believe are morally superior to those who do not.

This is a common presuppositional myth atheist have in order to support their own moral superiority..

.

Whether you like it or not, admit to it or not, there have been many Christians to hold that position

Ken

Ken: Whether you like it or not, admit to it or not, there have been many Christians to hold that position

Well, it depends upon exactly what aspect of moral superiority we're speaking of.

If we are comparing ANYONE'S morality to God, then we are all but miserable, sinful creatures. If we are speaking of are likelihood of doing sinful things, we ALL have this problem. But if we are speaking of Christians following a morally spiritual path in having faith in and following God vs. those who only are following their own little god (the one they see in the mirror every morning), then Christians are polar opposites as to what they morally believe and aspire to - which obviously doesn't make them immune from sinful impulses. But ALL Christians have the Holy Spirit guiding and instructing them, and while they can still resist Him, unbelievers have only themselves to obey. Every unbeliever ONLY has whatever self rules they desire, with all else being mere opinions they may or may not agree with.

Philip wrote:

Ken: Whether you like it or not, admit to it or not, there have been many Christians to hold that position

Well, it depends upon exactly what aspect of moral superiority we're speaking of.

If we are comparing ANYONE'S morality to God, then we are all but miserable, sinful creatures. If we are speaking of are likelihood of doing sinful things, we ALL have this problem. But if we are speaking of Christians following a morally spiritual path in having faith in and following God vs. those who only are following their own little god (the one they see in the mirror every morning), then Christians are polar opposites as to what they morally believe and aspire to - which obviously doesn't make them immune from sinful impulses. But ALL Christians have the Holy Spirit guiding and instructing them, and while they can still resist Him, unbelievers have only themselves to obey. Every unbeliever ONLY has whatever self rules they desire, with all else being mere opinions they may or may not agree with.

you've made my point

K

I think Kenny is talking about Christians who look down their noses at unbelievers, and think they're better than them.

While I think that "better than thou" attitude certainly steers people away from God, it's not really an argument against God. It's more of an argument for a sin nature.

RickD wrote:I think Kenny is talking about Christians who look down their noses at unbelievers, and think they're better than them.

While I think that "better than thou" attitude certainly steers people away from God, it's not really an argument against God. It's more of an argument for a sin nature.

That I agree with. However, the is mistake is to paint all Christians with the same brush stroke.

So as I stated on anther thread to you , Ken

Now, I cannot help people's maturity levels in Christ because one starts as a new born and grows from there learning by faith to hearken to the Lord one step and growth spurt at a time. So do not judge all Christians by infantile behavior of someone’s growing pain.

God offers a simple choice to either accept him or reject him completely. That's all Christianity offers. True bible based Christianity cannot force anything on any one. It offers a free choice to a person where they can decide freely to continue living in complete dysfunction or find the liberty from that dysfunction which freedom only Christ Jesus brings. Why, we learn to hear and listen to the ways he speaks to humanity to frees us from such dysfunctions!

Finding that freedom means we can actually say no to producing so much dysfunction. We learn to reason with the Lord and are purified and made whole.

The majority of Christians are not sanctimonious twits so your point is not a bases to reject Christ...
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Other than the traditional philosophical arguments for the existence of God, which I believe are irrefutable, one of the most powerful arguments for God in my view is the applicability of mathematics to the universe.

The basic assumption here is that the laws of physics, chemistry, and biology, underpinned by math, are indeed discoverable. Granted, requiring as a prerequisite great intelligence. I don't see how such an assumption is avoidable in any way.

So what do we have here. Under strict materialsim a blind, eternal, unguided matter/energy entity and for whatever reason coalesced into the building blocks of our early universe some 14 billion years ago. Through cosmic evolutionary processes fast forward some 8 billion years and we have our milky way galaxy and our grain of sand little green planet.

Fast forward another 3 billion years or so and by sheer accident life begins. Another billion years and again by sheer accidental evolutionary process our pre-frontal cortex evolves into intelligent, self-aware, rational beings to discover that the entire process from the get-go is underpinned by math which absolutely requires intelligence. Full circle.

I don't know about anyone else but I simply don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

Kenny wrote:

Philip wrote:

Ken: Whether you like it or not, admit to it or not, there have been many Christians to hold that position

Well, it depends upon exactly what aspect of moral superiority we're speaking of.

If we are comparing ANYONE'S morality to God, then we are all but miserable, sinful creatures. If we are speaking of are likelihood of doing sinful things, we ALL have this problem. But if we are speaking of Christians following a morally spiritual path in having faith in and following God vs. those who only are following their own little god (the one they see in the mirror every morning), then Christians are polar opposites as to what they morally believe and aspire to - which obviously doesn't make them immune from sinful impulses. But ALL Christians have the Holy Spirit guiding and instructing them, and while they can still resist Him, unbelievers have only themselves to obey. Every unbeliever ONLY has whatever self rules they desire, with all else being mere opinions they may or may not agree with.

you've made my point

K

Actually ken, he didn't.
I don't think you understood his post.

Believers to not THINK they are morally superior to non-believers because we KNOW that we are not.
Believer ASPIRE to be better because we KNOW we should be and we have the HS guiding us to the end.
It doesn't make us better or worse, it makes us knowledgeable of the FACT that we must try to be better.

Now, one can argue that the non-believer knows this also and doesn't "need" the HS to guide them BUT what is misunderstood in that regard is the INTENTION of WHY one must be good.

In short:
For the believer, being good is not the END goal, but the start and is OTHER centered as opposed to self-centered - being good not because we have to or because we want something for it but because it is done out of Love for Christ-.

For the non-believer, being good is required because either their personal moral code requires it or because societies rules demand it or because the Law requires it so the INTENTIOn to be moral is a bit different.

Kenny wrote:

B. W. wrote:

Ken: The least powerful argument I can think of in support of God is the claim that those who believe are morally superior to those who do not.

This is a common presuppositional myth atheist have in order to support their own moral superiority..

.

Whether you like it or not, admit to it or not, there have been many Christians to hold that position

Ken

We (generally speaking) don't think we are morally superior, but that God's way is morally superior to any other way. If we thought some other way was better (and based on truth), well, we'd probably be going with that. We (generally) want to live in that right way but all vary in how much we manage that. There are probably some Christians though who look down on others and forget that no one's perfect.