Evidence for God from Science

BEN: Here’s one of my favorite quotes from the book—– —“If God foreknows some event that happens then he may have predestined that event. But the fact that he foreknew an event does not require its predestination if it happens…. Since foreknowledge doesn’t require predestination, foreknown events that happen may or may not have been predestined.” (p. 65). So which events do you think are predestined by God? Presumably not sin and evil.
MIKE: Agreed. I don’t think God causatively predestines wickedness. Evil is what it is because lesser beings abuse God’s good gift of freedom. I’d have to be omniscient to go beyond that. I think the New Testament makes clear that God does step into human affairs when he wants to for whatever reason he wants to (Paul’s conversion). But I don’t think that’s the norm (but have no specific basis for that idea – it’s just an impression). Given that, it means that God is constantly engaged in our lives and human affairs in term of using circumstances, events and acts (good and evil), mistakes, words spoken or unspoken, divine agents, his Spirit, etc. to influence people toward redemption and the furtherance of his kingdom. I like to use the chess analogy for all this. What’s more impressive—the chess player (God) who looks at his opponent from across the board and says “You’re going to lose because I’ve predestined all your moves,” or the one who says “You can move wherever you like, I’m going to win no matter what”? God doesn’t need to predestine everything to have his way. Our God is that big.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:I think that is a very interesting take on it but leaves me with a question.

If the end game (desire of) so to speak of God is to lovingly draw all humans to himself and if God always wins in the end, wouldn't people going to hell mean God lost?

Edit. Myself leaning towards purgatorial universalism I think it is quite a good analogy.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

If God always wins and his desire is to be in a loving relationship with us he doesn't have to violate freewill to do so, he knows all the moves we can make and he knows which ones he can make so that he always wins in the end. Does that make more sense, God isn't violating freewill he just knows which moves to make to bring everyone into relationship with him.

neo-x wrote:I remember reading this by Lewis, "The gates of hell are locked from the inside."

PaulSacramento wrote:

neo-x wrote:I remember reading this by Lewis, "The gates of hell are locked from the inside."

Yes, they truly are.
It is really hard for a believer to grasp that and that is why universalism is popular because deep down we all think that people DO want to be saved, to be immersed in His love BUT the reality is that some do not.
We KNOW that God WOULD gave all the chance but we forget that some simply will NOT take and that God KNOWS who they are and WHY they won't.
It is heart breaking though.

I mean, why wouldn't someone WANT to be in a relationship with God? to feel and experience that love?
Then I look around and see people smoking, knowing taking into themselves something that can kill them,painfully.
I see the drugs and I see people going out of their way to do bad to themselves and those they love and I realize that all too painful realization that:
Some people just want to see the world burn.
Their world, The world, all of it.