Evidence for God from Science

Luke 22:42 (NET Bible)
22:42 “Father, if you are willing, take (109) this cup (110) away from me. Yet not my will but yours (111) be done.”

Note 110:
110 sn This cup alludes to the wrath of God that Jesus would experience (in the form of suffering and death) for us. See Ps 11:6; 75:8-9; Isa 51:17, 19, 22 for this figure. (some of my Study Bibles point this out to)

We are studying a book in Bible Study now. The author is Alan Hamilton, a Methodist minister, and the title is “Why, Making Sense of God’s Will.”

On page 42 and 43, Hamilton says:

“the cup was the suffering and death he would endure the following day leading up to and including his death on the cross. In essence Jesus was praying, “Father, deliver me from this. Please don’t make me endure the arrest, trial, torture and crucifixion.”

Hamilton makes it sound like Jesus was afraid of dying. Some in the class agreed, saying that since Jesus was human and they are human and they would fear such a horrible death, Jesus as a human must have feared it too.

If the cup was the cup of wrath and I believe it was, then why do you think Jesus was so concerned about it that He asked that the cup be removed?

Thanks.

Christian2 wrote:Luke 22:42 (NET Bible)
22:42 “Father, if you are willing, take (109) this cup (110) away from me. Yet not my will but yours (111) be done.”

Note 110:
110 sn This cup alludes to the wrath of God that Jesus would experience (in the form of suffering and death) for us. See Ps 11:6; 75:8-9; Isa 51:17, 19, 22 for this figure. (some of my Study Bibles point this out to)

We are studying a book in Bible Study now. The author is Alan Hamilton, a Methodist minister, and the title is “Why, Making Sense of God’s Will.”

On page 42 and 43, Hamilton says:

“the cup was the suffering and death he would endure the following day leading up to and including his death on the cross. In essence Jesus was praying, “Father, deliver me from this. Please don’t make me endure the arrest, trial, torture and crucifixion.”

Hamilton makes it sound like Jesus was afraid of dying. Some in the class agreed, saying that since Jesus was human and they are human and they would fear such a horrible death, Jesus as a human must have feared it too.

If the cup was the cup of wrath and I believe it was, then why do you think Jesus was so concerned about it that He asked that the cup be removed?

Thanks.

To say it was about Christ's passion leading up to his death is to utterly trivialize what it truly is about. Of course it was fear of death, after all Jesus is human and it is human nature to fear death. But the cup Jesus was asking the Father to be delivered from is so much more than his arrest, trial and crucifixion, from which he well knew he would triumph over by his resurrection. No, no, the cup is so much more than that, it is bearing the full weight of the world's sins onto his shoulders forever and ever. Just imagine what that would be like for the second person of the trinity to not only become human, forever and ever, but to also bear the sins of the world for eternity. The enormity of the weight of that cup cannot be trivialized in mere 3 days of suffering.

Byblos wrote:

Christian2 wrote:Luke 22:42 (NET Bible)
22:42 “Father, if you are willing, take (109) this cup (110) away from me. Yet not my will but yours (111) be done.”

Note 110:
110 sn This cup alludes to the wrath of God that Jesus would experience (in the form of suffering and death) for us. See Ps 11:6; 75:8-9; Isa 51:17, 19, 22 for this figure. (some of my Study Bibles point this out to)

We are studying a book in Bible Study now. The author is Alan Hamilton, a Methodist minister, and the title is “Why, Making Sense of God’s Will.”

On page 42 and 43, Hamilton says:

“the cup was the suffering and death he would endure the following day leading up to and including his death on the cross. In essence Jesus was praying, “Father, deliver me from this. Please don’t make me endure the arrest, trial, torture and crucifixion.”

Hamilton makes it sound like Jesus was afraid of dying. Some in the class agreed, saying that since Jesus was human and they are human and they would fear such a horrible death, Jesus as a human must have feared it too.

If the cup was the cup of wrath and I believe it was, then why do you think Jesus was so concerned about it that He asked that the cup be removed?

Thanks.

To say it was about Christ's passion leading up to his death is to utterly trivialize what it truly is about. Of course it was fear of death, after all Jesus is human and it is human nature to fear death. But the cup Jesus was asking the Father to be delivered from is so much more than his arrest, trial and crucifixion, from which he well knew he would triumph over by his resurrection. No, no, the cup is so much more than that, it is bearing the full weight of the world's sins onto his shoulders forever and ever. Just imagine what that would be like for the second person of the trinity to not only become human, forever and ever, but to also bear the sins of the world for eternity. The enormity of the weight of that cup cannot be trivialized in mere 3 days of suffering.

Thank you for your comments.

What about the fact that Jesus, the Word of God incarnate, would be separated from the Father -- bearing all our sins would separate Him from the others. Wouldn't this be unbearable considering the love between the members of the Trinity, even though it would be for less than 3 days?

I don't believe Jesus was afraid of the pain. After all He knew He would be crucified. He said He would be turned over to the Gentiles and put to death, that would be the Romans and Romans killed their victims by crucifying them.

Almost all of Jesus' disciples also suffered for their faith and I can't find anything that says they were afraid of dying.

Christian2 wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Christian2 wrote:Luke 22:42 (NET Bible)
22:42 “Father, if you are willing, take (109) this cup (110) away from me. Yet not my will but yours (111) be done.”

Note 110:
110 sn This cup alludes to the wrath of God that Jesus would experience (in the form of suffering and death) for us. See Ps 11:6; 75:8-9; Isa 51:17, 19, 22 for this figure. (some of my Study Bibles point this out to)

We are studying a book in Bible Study now. The author is Alan Hamilton, a Methodist minister, and the title is “Why, Making Sense of God’s Will.”

On page 42 and 43, Hamilton says:

“the cup was the suffering and death he would endure the following day leading up to and including his death on the cross. In essence Jesus was praying, “Father, deliver me from this. Please don’t make me endure the arrest, trial, torture and crucifixion.”

Hamilton makes it sound like Jesus was afraid of dying. Some in the class agreed, saying that since Jesus was human and they are human and they would fear such a horrible death, Jesus as a human must have feared it too.

If the cup was the cup of wrath and I believe it was, then why do you think Jesus was so concerned about it that He asked that the cup be removed?

Thanks.

To say it was about Christ's passion leading up to his death is to utterly trivialize what it truly is about. Of course it was fear of death, after all Jesus is human and it is human nature to fear death. But the cup Jesus was asking the Father to be delivered from is so much more than his arrest, trial and crucifixion, from which he well knew he would triumph over by his resurrection. No, no, the cup is so much more than that, it is bearing the full weight of the world's sins onto his shoulders forever and ever. Just imagine what that would be like for the second person of the trinity to not only become human, forever and ever, but to also bear the sins of the world for eternity. The enormity of the weight of that cup cannot be trivialized in mere 3 days of suffering.

Thank you for your comments.

What about the fact that Jesus, the Word of God incarnate, would be separated from the Father -- bearing all our sins would separate Him from the others. Wouldn't this be unbearable considering the love between the members of the Trinity, even though it would be for less than 3 days?

I understand what you're trying to say and to a large extent I do agree, we just need to be very careful with such language because it may have unintended implications such as the denial of monotheism by making members of the trinity as separate gods.

Christian2 wrote:I don't believe Jesus was afraid of the pain. After all He knew He would be crucified. He said He would be turned over to the Gentiles and put to death, that would be the Romans and Romans killed their victims by crucifying them.

Exactly.

Christian2 wrote:Almost all of Jesus' disciples also suffered for their faith and I can't find anything that says they were afraid of dying.

They were terrified for they did not fully comprehend what Jesus was telling them. After his resurrection you could almost see the light bulb go on in their heads, and the transformation was instantaneous, from fear, cowardice, lack of conviction, to fearlessness, courage, full-on faith. Complete 180 degree transformation.

Christian2 wrote:I don't believe Jesus was afraid of the pain. After all He knew He would be crucified. He said He would be turned over to the Gentiles and put to death, that would be the Romans and Romans killed their victims by crucifying them.

If I may respectfully disagree, I think that's exactly the point. Jesus was terrified by the pain. He may have been God incarnate, but He was also human: fully human. That means His faculties worked exactly like they should have. Now, not only is crucifixion something to be feared, but given the great torture involved with it (during and before), it is something to be feared greatly. To diminish that is to do nothing less than to diminish Jesus' humanity, to suggest that He was above the fear somehow because His great theological insight.

Absolutely not. Theological insight does not remove the fear. It justifies it. It explains it. It was because of Jesus' insight that He was able to pray that prayer, "Father, take this from Me if possible." In fact, if I may go further, for Jesus not to pray that would have been unfitting, a rejection of His humanity. He embraced not only the sins of the world, but He embraced His humanity. If He did not embrace the latter, then bearing the former would have been meaningless and ineffective.

So what's the cup? All of it. The entire ordeal He was about to face, including (and in fact starting with and based on and in no way dimishing but in fact highlighting) the physical pain and suffering. Let's not turn Jesus into a Stoic, guys.

Jac3510 wrote:

Christian2 wrote:I don't believe Jesus was afraid of the pain. After all He knew He would be crucified. He said He would be turned over to the Gentiles and put to death, that would be the Romans and Romans killed their victims by crucifying them.

If I may respectfully disagree, I think that's exactly the point. Jesus was terrified by the pain. He may have been God incarnate, but He was also human: fully human. That means His faculties worked exactly like they should have. Now, not only is crucifixion something to be feared, but given the great torture involved with it (during and before), it is something to be feared greatly. To diminish that is to do nothing less than to diminish Jesus' humanity, to suggest that He was above the fear somehow because His great theological insight.

Absolutely not. Theological insight does not remove the fear. It justifies it. It explains it. It was because of Jesus' insight that He was able to pray that prayer, "Father, take this from Me if possible." In fact, if I may go further, for Jesus not to pray that would have been unfitting, a rejection of His humanity. He embraced not only the sins of the world, but He embraced His humanity. If He did not embrace the latter, then bearing the former would have been meaningless and ineffective.

So what's the cup? All of it. The entire ordeal He was about to face, including (and in fact starting with and based on and in no way dimishing but in fact highlighting) the physical pain and suffering. Let's not turn Jesus into a Stoic, guys.

I don't disagree with you at all. In fact I so much as stated that by virtue of his humam nature Jesus would have been dreadfully fearful.

But in my effort to over emphasize the eternal consequences of the cup he was about to bear
I may have under emphasized the physical pain he was about to endure. Not my intention. The two go hand in hand.

Jac3510 wrote:

Christian2 wrote:I don't believe Jesus was afraid of the pain. After all He knew He would be crucified. He said He would be turned over to the Gentiles and put to death, that would be the Romans and Romans killed their victims by crucifying them.

If I may respectfully disagree, I think that's exactly the point. Jesus was terrified by the pain. He may have been God incarnate, but He was also human: fully human. That means His faculties worked exactly like they should have. Now, not only is crucifixion something to be feared, but given the great torture involved with it (during and before), it is something to be feared greatly. To diminish that is to do nothing less than to diminish Jesus' humanity, to suggest that He was above the fear somehow because His great theological insight.

Absolutely not. Theological insight does not remove the fear. It justifies it. It explains it. It was because of Jesus' insight that He was able to pray that prayer, "Father, take this from Me if possible." In fact, if I may go further, for Jesus not to pray that would have been unfitting, a rejection of His humanity. He embraced not only the sins of the world, but He embraced His humanity. If He did not embrace the latter, then bearing the former would have been meaningless and ineffective.

So what's the cup? All of it. The entire ordeal He was about to face, including (and in fact starting with and based on and in no way dimishing but in fact highlighting) the physical pain and suffering. Let's not turn Jesus into a Stoic, guys.

I put myself in Jesus' place as a human being. What if I was given the choice of dying a painful death, or instead, enduring God's wrath?

I don't understand the either/or, C2.

Jac3510 wrote:I don't understand the either/or, C2.

I was trying to point out that the pain of being crucified would be very secondary to incurring God's wrath. Incurring God's wrath would mean that God would be forced to turn His back on Jesus.

I see. I used to hold to that view. I had a long discussion with ttoews about it many years ago. Suffice it to say, I don't hold that view anymore.

Jac3510 wrote:I see. I used to hold to that view. I had a long discussion with ttoews about it many years ago. Suffice it to say, I don't hold that view anymore.

I'm going to look at some Bible commentaries on this subject. Will let you all know what I find out.

I reviewed some Bible commentaries and they are all over the map. G&S did a better job.

Here's one:

The Expositor’s Bible Commentary:
Luke 22:42
“As in Matthew 20:22 and Mark 10:38 Jesus uses the cup as a metaphor of his imminent passion. Some, however, have imagined that his metaphor implies that Jesus faced death with less bravery than others have faced it. (But to shrink from a painful death is not necessarily cowardice: the highest bravery may consist in being fully cognizant of impending and agonizing death and yet to embrace it voluntarily.)

At any rate, it has been suggested that the cup Jesus feared was that he might die from the strain he was under before he could willingly offer himself on the cross.

But this view fails to recognize that Jesus would not have been as concerned with the physical pain of his death as with the spiritual desolation of bearing our sin and its judgment on the cross (2 Cor 5:21, 1 Peter 2:24).

Moreover, in the OT the wrath of God expressed against sin was sometimes referred to by the metaphor of a cup.

Are you familiar with the idea of illegitimate totality transfer, C2?

Jac3510 wrote:Are you familiar with the idea of illegitimate totality transfer, C2?

No, please explain it to me.

Thanks.

Briefly, it's when you take all possible meanings of a word or phrase (the entire semantic domain) and state or imply that the meaning in any individual occurrence includes all of those meanings. To use a humorous example, imagine how a seminary-educated evangelical preacher might exegete and interpret a stop sign. He would first look up "STOP" in his lexicons of English and discover that it can mean: 1) something that prevents motion, such as a plug for a drain, or a block of wood that prevents a door from closing; 2) a location where a train or bus lets off passengers. The main point of his sermon the following Sunday on this text is: When you see a stop sign, it is a place where traffic is naturally clogged, so it is a good place to let off passengers from your car.

So that's illegitimate totality transfer. And it doesn't just apply to individual words. It applies to concepts and theological constructs, too. I worry the Expositor's Commentary is falling into that error.