Evidence for God from Science

Is ignorance of the Gospel a guaranteed ticket to heaven? If a person lived his life without ever having the opportunity to learn of Christianity, does this person go to Heaven upon death? If not, is it fair to punish someone who didn't have a chance, if so; wouldn't it be better to allow as many to remain ignorant in order to get as many in heaven as possible?

Ken

No.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (Rom. 1:18-20, NIV)

Kenny wrote:Is ignorance of the Gospel a guaranteed ticket to heaven? If a person lived his life without ever having the opportunity to learn of Christianity, does this person go to Heaven upon death? If not, is it fair to punish someone who didn't have a chance, if so; wouldn't it be better to allow as many to remain ignorant in order to get as many in heaven as possible?

I'll just list some points, you'd need to work out what you think if Christ was God etc:

• God is fully righteous and so can't accept sin.
• God is supreme judge, everyone will be judged for their sin.
• God planned and enacted a way (Christ) whereby we could be redeemed from our sin, thereby passing from such judgement.
• Those who don't have Christ, will receive the penalty for their sin (exiled from God's kingdom/eternal death)

Now how does one come receive Christ? Here are some positions:

• Belief in Christ (mere intellectual assent of Christ)
• Belief in Christ (outworking of such something like asking for Christ to forgive you, come into your life as Lord)
• Belief in Christ and turning away from sin (while good to turn away from sin, considered by many Christians as heretical since such isn't fully depending upon Christ for salvation / diminishes the price Christ paid / still trying to "earn" one's way into God's kingdom with works)

Plus:

• Not explicit in Scripture, but possibly response to God's Natural Revelation, one may be able to readily acknowledge, recognise Christ as Lord of all Creation, and so choose to stand with Him.
  (note, even prior to "the Lord" coming in human form as Jesus of Nazareth, Abraham and indeed Israel would have been saved on account of their faith in the Lord - Romans 4:3-8; I believe one can come to know of the Lord without having the Gospel preached through general revelation supported also by Paul in Romans 1:18-20)
• Also not explicit in Scripture, but possibly small children and people with mental in-capacities are given a chance to accept Christ -- no one really knows. It is hard to say that one receives punishment for sin they had not committed, and yet Scripture clearly says all have sinned, even in Adam (i.e., "original sin", disputed by more and more today)

The question is, having heard and rejected, one cannot claim ignorance as an excuse. Of course, if they were to stand with Christ hereafter, then I believe they'd pass from judgement. The thing is here, why would a person change? I say it needs to be a true heart response to Christ (true love/faith in), not merely because they dread the consequences of not accepting Christ (fear/selfishness).

Kurieuo wrote:

Kenny wrote:Is ignorance of the Gospel a guaranteed ticket to heaven? If a person lived his life without ever having the opportunity to learn of Christianity, does this person go to Heaven upon death? If not, is it fair to punish someone who didn't have a chance, if so; wouldn't it be better to allow as many to remain ignorant in order to get as many in heaven as possible?

I'll just list some points, you'd need to work out what you think if Christ was God etc:

• God is fully righteous and so can't accept sin.
• God is supreme judge, everyone will be judged for their sin.
• God planned and enacted a way (Christ) whereby we could be redeemed from our sin, thereby passing from such judgement.
• Those who don't have Christ, will receive the penalty for their sin (exiled from God's kingdom/eternal death)

Now how does one come receive Christ? Here are some positions:

• Belief in Christ (mere intellectual assent of Christ)
• Belief in Christ (outworking of such something like asking for Christ to forgive you, come into your life as Lord)
• Belief in Christ and turning away from sin (while good to turn away from sin, considered by many Christians as heretical since such isn't fully depending upon Christ for salvation / diminishes the price Christ paid / still trying to "earn" one's way into God's kingdom with works)
• Not explicit in Scripture, but possibly response to God's Natural Revelation, one may be able to readily acknowledge, recognise Christ as Lord of all Creation, and so choose to stand with Him.
  (note, even prior to "the Lord" coming in human form as Jesus of Nazareth, Abraham and indeed Israel would have been saved on account of their faith in the Lord - Romans 4:3-8; I believe one can come to know of the Lord without having the Gospel preached through general revelation supported also by Paul in Romans 1:18-20)
• Also not explicit in Scripture, but possibly small children and people with mental in-capacities are given a chance to accept Christ -- no one really knows. It is hard to say that one receives punishment for sin they had not committed, and yet Scripture clearly says all have sinned, even in Adam (i.e., "original sin", disputed by more and more today)

The question is, having heard and rejected, one cannot claim ignorance as an excuse. Of course, if they were to stand with Christ hereafter, then I believe they'd pass from judgement. The thing is here, why would a person change? I say it needs to be a true heart response to Christ (true love/faith in), not merely because they dread the consequences of not accepting Christ (fear/selfishness).

Do you have an opinion on the question I asked?

Ken

I thought my response was quite detailed and thorough, given you're questions are complex i.e., loaded -- the answers to which aren't necessarily yes/no. Except for the first which is an obvious "No".

Kurieuo wrote:I thought my response was quite detailed and thorough, given you're questions are complex i.e., loaded -- the answers to which aren't necessarily yes/no. Except for the first which is an obvious "No".

The first question was the only question I really asked; the rest was just going into details and explaining the first and only question.
So if I understand you correctly; if a person lived and died, and during this time they never had a chance to learn about Jesus, they go to Hell?

Ken

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:I thought my response was quite detailed and thorough, given you're questions are complex i.e., loaded -- the answers to which aren't necessarily yes/no. Except for the first which is an obvious "No".

The first question was the only question I really asked; the rest was just going into details and explaining the first and only question.
So if I understand you correctly; if a person lived and died, and during this time they never had a chance to learn about Jesus, they go to Hell?

That wasn't your first question, but more your loaded question which can't necessarily be answered with a yes or no. You can find a response in my extended reply which pretty much covers all bases.

Kenny wrote:Is ignorance of the Gospel a guaranteed ticket to heaven?
Ken

-No-

Kenny wrote:If a person lived his life without ever having the opportunity to learn of Christianity, does this person go to Heaven upon death?

Ken

-No-

Kenny wrote: If not, is it fair to punish someone who didn't have a chance...

Ken

I will answer your questions with questions: Have you ever lied, hurt another person Ken, falsely accused another, attempted to entrap someone with baited questions?

Ever abandoned, rejected someone, verbally hurt another feelings, stolen things like a persons trust or even stolen some sort of possessions another owns?

Ever schemed to bring low another person in order to exalt yourself in some manner above others? Look with lustful fantasy at another? Who have you betrayed? Have you ever turned your back on those in need?

Romans 3:23, ...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...

Rom 3:10, ...as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE...

Isaiah 26:10, Though the wicked is shown favor, He does not learn righteousness; He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD.

How unjustly are you dealing with us here, right now? And you expect to skate into heaven and corrupt it with your lifestyle? If God did, then he would not be absolutely just...

If you reject him here, you will reject him there - why do attempt to trick and strong arm God into letting you into heaven due to ignorance?

Can ignorance save you from sin because it is used as means to justify never coming to God to be changed by grace?

Kenny wrote: ...If so; wouldn't it be better to allow as many to remain ignorant in order to get as many in heaven as possible?

Ken

-No- none are ignorant except the unborn and little children whose minds have not developed with full moral reasoning - those allowed in but those like yourself - NO-

Why?

Rom 1:20-32, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Also Re-read comment just answered directly above...and add...

John 2:24, "But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men."

Job 34:12-21, "Surely, God will not act wickedly, And the Almighty will not pervert justice..."

Job 34:21,22,23, "For His eyes are upon the ways of a man, And He sees all his steps. 22 "There is no darkness or deep shadow Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves. 23 "For He does not need to consider a man further, That he should go before God in judgment."

Isaiah 26:10, Though the wicked is shown favor, He does not learn righteousness; He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD.

Due to God's just nature and character is why he sent Jesus Christ to redeem people from ourselves and to clean us up inwardly so we as in those that come to him as John 3:15-21 reveals how; will never corrupt heaven like you would or those you claim as ignorant, sinning like all human beings do...

Rom 3:24 :...being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus...

Ken, time for you to come to Jesus... forsake your ignorance come to Jesus. Several of us have described how easy it is.
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Note: All bible quotes are from the NASB

Kurieuo wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:I thought my response was quite detailed and thorough, given you're questions are complex i.e., loaded -- the answers to which aren't necessarily yes/no. Except for the first which is an obvious "No".

The first question was the only question I really asked; the rest was just going into details and explaining the first and only question.
So if I understand you correctly; if a person lived and died, and during this time they never had a chance to learn about Jesus, they go to Hell?

That wasn't your first question, but more your loaded question which can't necessarily be answered with a yes or no. You can find a response in my extended reply which pretty much covers all bases.

The only question I asked was "Is ignorance of Christianity a guaranteed ticket to Heaven." Would you mind explaining why that is a loaded question that cannot be answered with a yes or no? I just do not see an answer to my question in your extended response

Ken

Kenny wrote: If not, is it fair to punish someone who didn't have a chance...

Ken

B. W. wrote: I will answer your questions with questions: Have you ever lied, hurt another person Ken, falsely accused another, attempted to entrap someone with baited questions?

Ever abandoned, rejected someone, verbally hurt another feelings, stolen things like a persons trust or even stolen some sort of possessions another owns?

Ever schemed to bring low another person in order to exalt yourself in some manner above others? Look with lustful fantasy at another? Who have you betrayed? Have you ever turned your back on those in need?

Let me put it this way; I am as corrupt, and as honest, and as wicked, and as kind, as you are. Have you done any of those things? (I think you have your answer)

B. W. wrote: Romans 3:23, ...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...

Rom 3:10, ...as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE...

Isaiah 26:10, Though the wicked is shown favor, He does not learn righteousness; He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD.

How unjustly are you dealing with us here, right now? And you expect to skate into heaven and corrupt it with your lifestyle? If God did, then he would not be absolutely just...

Skate into Heaven? Remember who you are talking to; I don't believe in Heaven; remember? But you do, so if anyone intends to do any skating into Heaven, between the two of us that would be you. This question I am asking has nothing to do with me, I'm talking about someone who never heard of christianity.

Kenny wrote: ...If so; wouldn't it be better to allow as many to remain ignorant in order to get as many in heaven as possible?

Ken

B. W. wrote: -No- none are ignorant except the unborn and little children whose minds have not developed with full moral reasoning -

None are ignorant? Consider a person born, lived, and died in in West Africa back in the 14th century. The only God he knew of was Amma; he never heard of Jesus, Yahweh, the Holy Spirit, the BIble, or anything remotely related to Christianity. How can you say this person is not ignorant of the Gospel?

Ken

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:I thought my response was quite detailed and thorough, given you're questions are complex i.e., loaded -- the answers to which aren't necessarily yes/no. Except for the first which is an obvious "No".

The first question was the only question I really asked; the rest was just going into details and explaining the first and only question.
So if I understand you correctly; if a person lived and died, and during this time they never had a chance to learn about Jesus, they go to Hell?

That wasn't your first question, but more your loaded question which can't necessarily be answered with a yes or no. You can find a response in my extended reply which pretty much covers all bases.

The only question I asked was "Is ignorance of Christianity a guaranteed ticket to Heaven." Would you mind explaining why that is a loaded question that cannot be answered with a yes or no? I just do not see an answer to my question in your extended response.

That was a "no", and no to that question only. Your two following questions were:

Q2: If a person lived his life without ever having the opportunity to learn of Christianity, does this person go to Heaven upon death?

Q3: If not, is it fair to punish someone who didn't have a chance, if so; wouldn't it be better to allow as many to remain ignorant in order to get as many in heaven as possible?

These are very complex questions that a "yes" or "no" really isn't fitting for. Hence an extended response, which I thought was being quite courteous to you rather than ignoring your questions.

Kurieuo wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:I thought my response was quite detailed and thorough, given you're questions are complex i.e., loaded -- the answers to which aren't necessarily yes/no. Except for the first which is an obvious "No".

The first question was the only question I really asked; the rest was just going into details and explaining the first and only question.
So if I understand you correctly; if a person lived and died, and during this time they never had a chance to learn about Jesus, they go to Hell?

That wasn't your first question, but more your loaded question which can't necessarily be answered with a yes or no. You can find a response in my extended reply which pretty much covers all bases.

The only question I asked was "Is ignorance of Christianity a guaranteed ticket to Heaven." Would you mind explaining why that is a loaded question that cannot be answered with a yes or no? I just do not see an answer to my question in your extended response.

That was a "no", and no to that question only. Your two following questions were:

Q2: If a person lived his life without ever having the opportunity to learn of Christianity, does this person go to Heaven upon death?

Q3: If not, is it fair to punish someone who didn't have a chance, if so; wouldn't it be better to allow as many to remain ignorant in order to get as many in heaven as possible?

These are very complex questions that a "yes" or "no" really isn't fitting for. Hence an extended response, which I thought was being quite courteous to you rather than ignoring your questions.

You're right! I did ask a couple of follow up questions. Thanks for pointing that out to me, and thanks for answering my question.

Ken

Kenny wrote:Is ignorance of the Gospel a guaranteed ticket to heaven? If a person lived his life without ever having the opportunity to learn of Christianity, does this person go to Heaven upon death? If not, is it fair to punish someone who didn't have a chance, if so; wouldn't it be better to allow as many to remain ignorant in order to get as many in heaven as possible?

Ken

IMO, NO.
See, the Gospel saves, belief in Christ saves, BUT from what?
Not death since all die.
It saves from judgment, it saves from being judged by what we have done and WHY we did it ( people always forget that part, as if doing good for selfish reasons is somehow ok).
People that are punished, are punished because they deserve to be so, because they choose to be.
It may seem harsh, it may not seem to be fair but that is because, deep down, we want things to be they way WE WANT THEM, regardless if they are good or bad for us.
God, on the other hand, KNOWS what is ideal for us and KNOWS that the end doesn't justify the means ( so intent is crucial), He knows why we do what we do ( even if we lie to ourselves and tell ourselves differently).

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:Is ignorance of the Gospel a guaranteed ticket to heaven? If a person lived his life without ever having the opportunity to learn of Christianity, does this person go to Heaven upon death? If not, is it fair to punish someone who didn't have a chance, if so; wouldn't it be better to allow as many to remain ignorant in order to get as many in heaven as possible?

Ken

IMO, NO.
See, the Gospel saves, belief in Christ saves, BUT from what?
Not death since all die.
It saves from judgment, it saves from being judged by what we have done and WHY we did it ( people always forget that part, as if doing good for selfish reasons is somehow ok).
People that are punished, are punished because they deserve to be so, because they choose to be.
It may seem harsh, it may not seem to be fair but that is because, deep down, we want things to be they way WE WANT THEM, regardless if they are good or bad for us.
God, on the other hand, KNOWS what is ideal for us and KNOWS that the end doesn't justify the means ( so intent is crucial), He knows why we do what we do ( even if we lie to ourselves and tell ourselves differently).

Thanks for answering my question.

Ken

Anytime Ken,
Now I guess the next logical question is WHY must God Judge?
Yes?