Evidence for God from Science

Lots of denominations are deeply divided over miracles/gifts today. I'd like to share my own views (as one who came out of a cessationist background), but in the meantime, here's a piece to get converastion going. Two short videos (both just over five minutes each):

https://www.cmalliance.org/video/watch/30048/
https://www.cmalliance.org/video/watch/30046/

In general, I'm curious about y'all's thoughts on healing today in general and your thoughts on the story here in particular. And just by way of disclaimer regarding motivation, these videos were displayed at our district conference this year (we have one annually). It's pretty typical of what I've seen elsewhere, both in my church and outside of it, and I thought it was a good representation and could put actual names/faces to otherwise abstract theological arguments.

Thoughts?

The very definition of miracle is:
mir·a·cle
ˈmirək(ə)l/
noun
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.

It makes people apprehensive to say something is a miracle because it brings God into it.
They prefer to see "unexplained event" or "sometimes these things happen".

One thing I have experienced is that for people that don't believe in miracles, NOTHING will make them believe.
The mental gymnastics that I have seen by skeptics to NOT believe in a miracle is quite something.

The issue with miracles are, for some, the why.
Why that person? why not *insert family member or good friend here* ?

I remember one person actually saying that miracles are a bad thing because they can cause people to doubt God's goodness when He apparently heals some and not others.

I know that when my Dad got ill, we all prayed for a miracle ( that did not come).
I can't speak for anyone but myself but I prayed for God to heal my Father IF that was His will, knowing full well that God answers all prayers, even if the answer may be no.
I made peace with the fact that my Dad would die and ask Our Lord simply for the strength to be there for him and my family ( which He gave me, all praise be to Him who strengthens us).
BUT, every so often, my mom and sisters would say "why him Lord, others get miracles, why not us?"

Its a painful thing to see and feel.

I only watched the first video. I really don't see anything controversial in it, as far as from a Christian pov, ceasationist or not. I don't believe anyone has the gift of healing, nor the gift of tongues anymore. But I certainly believe God can heal.

So, the video may be showing an actual miracle or it may not.

One thing for sure, is that it was no Benny Hinn "healing" show.

Do I need to watch the second video, or is it just a continuation of their story?

And we had many people praying for both of my parents to be healed. My dad had terminal cancer, and my mom had brain damage from a heart attack. God took them both home.

Rick: I only watched the first video. I really don't see anything controversial in it, as far as from a Christian pov, ceasationist or not. I don't believe anyone has the gift of healing, nor the gift of tongues anymore. But I certainly believe God can heal.

Exactly! God hasn't changed. He can do miracles whenever He so desires. But asking whether God does present-day miracles is a different issue entirely from asserting someone presently has the GIFT of healing. And until I see lines around the block of some church EVERY time it opens its doors, or you see people flying in from all parts, desperate to obtain what they have good word that others have, then I'll remain extremely skeptical that someone in their midst has such a gift.

My understanding is that the sign gifts were mostly limited to Prophets and Apostles, etc., as they were breaking new teachings and the gifts gave witness that these people were not speaking only on their own behalf, but from the Lord. Also, if such gifts were abundant, I see a huge problem that these sign gifts are typically only in certain kinds of churches (and a small percentage compared to the entirety of Christiandom), and not distributed across ALL (or most) Christian churches, as all of the other/non-sign gifts are spread across ALL churches. And I've NEVER seen someone laying hands and someone lame walking out - NEVER. In my entire life, having attended many churches, I've only seen the babbling in a certain churches. So, I as I don't think God is a respecter of either persons or denominations, I see a huge problem with what we actually see, as opposed to what is often asserted.

Now, well these sign gifts appear again, across all churches - that's a different matter. And Scripture indicates we'll see some amazing things as we approach the end of the Church Age.

Jac3510 wrote:Lots of denominations are deeply divided over miracles/gifts today. I'd like to share my own views (as one who came out of a cessationist background), but in the meantime, here's a piece to get converastion going. Two short videos (both just over five minutes each):

https://www.cmalliance.org/video/watch/30048/
https://www.cmalliance.org/video/watch/30046/

In general, I'm curious about y'all's thoughts on healing today in general and your thoughts on the story here in particular. And just by way of disclaimer regarding motivation, these videos were displayed at our district conference this year (we have one annually). It's pretty typical of what I've seen elsewhere, both in my church and outside of it, and I thought it was a good representation and could put actual names/faces to otherwise abstract theological arguments.

Thoughts?

I think I want the ama to document a limb growing back.

All I'd say, is there is no reason to accept what anyone says without being able to test.

That said, whether one believes the couple, and I don't know enough about them, nonetheless there seems like elements common enough with other stories I've heard. Including especially regarding funds "miraculously" coming in. I can testify myself, that God's looked after me well when I looked to Christ, guiding my steps in a way that seemed immovable throughout life.

I've known people, who weren't cured so much as sustained to go much longer beyond the month or so doctors proclaimed they'd die from cancer. Like 10 years or so longer. God honoured her prayers to be there for her kids longer, and see her grandchildren. I hear of stories of people cured, though each story must stand testing according to its own merits. I therefore speak of a case I'm aware to, appeared to be quite significant, of a Christian I'd not challenge because I knew her heart.

If someone appears to be saying "look at me" or others around tend to place them on a pedestal, then for me that fruit is a cause of suspicion and sign of a fake. That rules out all televangelists, right?

Rich himself has his own story with Crohn's disease. Actually, lookie what I found :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcLgDk3mpQc

Nonetheless, Carole was evidently not healed, however appears to have been a strong Christian. Though I feel it's not my place to speak since such is Rich's and his family's story the experiences of such would have no doubt been quite painful.

So do miracles occur today? Yes. Should we just believe Christians who appear sincere and claim to have had this or that miracle? No. Such sets up a bad standard for going astray after all sorts of false teachers. I'd further add, it's all irrelevant as well, such might be good for personal belief and faith in Christ, but they do little to convince others who are skeptical. Our hope and trust should be in Christ alone, not in receiving spiritual gifts or following after this or that "healer" or "prophet".

God certainly did a physical miracle with me - but not instantaneously (it played out largely over 18 terrible months, and to a lesser extent, about 4-5 years of gradual healing). But the bigger miracles were sudden, with critical information given to me in random, unexpected ways. I had several very dangerous and complex to diagnose things that had the same source cause, but that no doctor had been able to diagnose - and I was growing evermore seriously ill over many months. I feared I would die, because no doctor could tell me what was wrong. I was one miserable human being! But God miraculously put the information and answers right in my hands, in two stages, randomly, by friends - which I, each time, took to a series of doctors who confirmed the info. If those things had not happened, you wouldn't be reading this post. And equally amazing, He also showed me I would be well - and SPECIFICALLY so, LONG before I began to get well (or even knew what was actually wrong with me) - but that information had to play out over time to be confirmed/realized, although I desperately clung to what I thought He had specifically shown me/put in my hands (about becoming well again). And, subsequently, God also confirmed what He initially showed me (that I would be well again), and long before it happened, and in the midst of the crisis - again, by putting it, physically, right in my hands. And so He confirmed that what I thought He had shown me (that I would get well) so specifically so that I could not have any doubt as to that fact.

These things above are the only truly miraculous things that I ever experienced, but were so stunning and important to everything in my life that came afterward. And as I am such a rationalist and skeptic of claims of God supposedly revealing to people this or that - mostly because many who claim so, PROLIFICALLY do - as if we should just expect constant miracles and supernatural understandings. I still believe these happen, but A) that they are rare and B) that such things are not inherent in some "gift" someone has. But God knew that I am such a forward-looking person that I needed great hope that I would survive - else, I would have crawled in a hole and prepared to die. All this went down when I was 33, and had quit work, to finish up the last year of my journalism degree. So, faith that better days and healing were ahead gave me the drive to finish up a hellish last year of school, as I was terribly sick with horrific neurological damage. Every school project took me forever to complete. And if God had not made it absolutely clear, by powerfully confirming to me (by having put actual and physical documentation in my hands (unexpectedly, unsought, randomly - and which I still have), that I had not imagined that He had shown me I would be well, and in an obvious confirmation put directly into my hands, then I would not have believed it. I would have rationalized things as interesting coincidences. But the hope they gave me, along with the enormous boost to my faith, are life-long lessons.

Might I also add to the above, is that miracles are not commonly experienced. That isn't how God typically works. He doesn't tend to supernaturally show us things ahead of time - or tell us precisely what to do. I believe such things are relatively rare. He guides us while we are stepping out on a path in faith - which is how I received the miracles above - I was on a mission like no other. I was desperate to live. I was networking with people, other Christians, researching doctors, etc. And most importantly, I was seeking God like I never had before. I had so many people praying for me. God broke me in good ways, and then He restored me. Just remembering that time, nearly 25 years ago, still astonishes me, and makes me tremble to remember it. But I experienced God with such a enormous sense of well being, in the midst of the crisis, that I've not had since. Perhaps because it is difficult to have such closeness without drawing constantly close to God with great urgency. I learned that when one depends upon the Lord, there is ALWAYS hope - of course, for our eternal life beyond - but as well for the great difficulties we often face here. I've often heard said that every Christian will face at least one or two great crises over their lifetime.

I had a really humongous hemorrhoid that was killing me. I had the pastor lay hands on it and anoint it with oil.

It's still there.

RickD wrote:I had a really humongous hemorrhoid that was killing me. I had the pastor lay hands on it and anoint it with oil.

It's still there.

Your pastor actually laid his hands on the hemorrhoid?

I've had problems in that area for a long time, too.


Sometimes our healing comes in heaven -- Not here on earth. We'd Like to see the healing happen Here.

crochet1949 wrote:

RickD wrote:I had a really humongous hemorrhoid that was killing me. I had the pastor lay hands on it and anoint it with oil.

It's still there.

Your pastor actually laid his hands on the hemorrhoid?

I've had problems in that area for a long time, too.


Sometimes our healing comes in heaven -- Not here on earth. We'd Like to see the healing happen Here.

I even tried hemorrhoid massage therapy and acupuncture. Neither worked.

RickD wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:

RickD wrote:I had a really humongous hemorrhoid that was killing me. I had the pastor lay hands on it and anoint it with oil.

It's still there.

Your pastor actually laid his hands on the hemorrhoid?

I've had problems in that area for a long time, too.


Sometimes our healing comes in heaven -- Not here on earth. We'd Like to see the healing happen Here.

I even tried hemorrhoid massage therapy and acupuncture. Neither worked.

I'm Almost afraid to as this -- but, massage therapy for THAT? Acupuncture I can almost believe.

Audie wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:Lots of denominations are deeply divided over miracles/gifts today. I'd like to share my own views (as one who came out of a cessationist background), but in the meantime, here's a piece to get converastion going. Two short videos (both just over five minutes each):

https://www.cmalliance.org/video/watch/30048/
https://www.cmalliance.org/video/watch/30046/

In general, I'm curious about y'all's thoughts on healing today in general and your thoughts on the story here in particular. And just by way of disclaimer regarding motivation, these videos were displayed at our district conference this year (we have one annually). It's pretty typical of what I've seen elsewhere, both in my church and outside of it, and I thought it was a good representation and could put actual names/faces to otherwise abstract theological arguments.

Thoughts?

I think I want the ama to document a limb growing back.

A while back on another thread - you'd commented about 'a limb growing back' -- maybe it was the same subject and you were showing your skepticism -- and Maybe it was another skeptic and not you, personally. And , maybe it was someone in another country showing that someone's leg Did appear to be growing back.
But - if that Was possible -- there would be no need for artificial limbs to be made to replace those lost through 'whatever' means they were lost.
Just my 2 cents worth.
I've known people who simply Won't accept even the possibility of miracles. Because it Does imply the existence of a higher power.

crochet1949 wrote:

RickD wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:

RickD wrote:I had a really humongous hemorrhoid that was killing me. I had the pastor lay hands on it and anoint it with oil.

It's still there.

Your pastor actually laid his hands on the hemorrhoid?

I've had problems in that area for a long time, too.


Sometimes our healing comes in heaven -- Not here on earth. We'd Like to see the healing happen Here.

I even tried hemorrhoid massage therapy and acupuncture. Neither worked.

I'm Almost afraid to as this -- but, massage therapy for THAT? Acupuncture I can almost believe.

I even asked the lovely nurse to kiss it and make it better...

I had a really humongous hemorrhoid that was killing me. I had the pastor lay hands on it and anoint it with oil.

It's still there.

And, obviously, he was the most caring pastor of ALL time! (All the while making himself a mental note: "That's it! I just HAVE to ask for a raise!") I doubt even our resident hospital chaplain would have had THAT good a bedside manner. Now I have a mental image that is going to take days to go away! The bad result is like from him probably having used motor oil!

Crochet, don't fall for Rick's sarcasm.

Philip wrote:

I had a really humongous hemorrhoid that was killing me. I had the pastor lay hands on it and anoint it with oil.

It's still there.

And, obviously, he was the most caring pastor of ALL time! (All the while making himself a mental note: "That's it! I just HAVE to ask for a raise!") I doubt even our resident hospital chaplain would have had THAT good a bedside manner. Now I have a mental image that is going to take days to go away! The bad result is like from him probably having used motor oil!

Crochet, don't fall for Rick's sarcasm.

Sarcasm? I was serious.