Evidence for God from Science

I've got some questions for the Christians here, as to your responses and experiences as to visits from Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons.

First, today's encounter:

OK, my blood pressure is going back down a bit. Just got a random visit from two exceptionally polite Jehovah witnesses. We're in the middle of our five acres, so they had to come down a long driveway. They were wearing suits. I'm always careful when people I don't know enter our property. But as one was black and the other white, dressed as they were, I was fairly certain they were Jehovah Witnesses. Bingo! (but I could have guessed wrongly)

I asked why they were here, and they said something about their church. I immediately asked, are you guys Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons. "We're Jehovah Witnesses." I've not a lot of patience with their beating around the bush, so I told them they were wasting their time, because we believe Jesus is God and you don't. "Oh, we believe in Jesus." But you don't believe he is God, correct, I replied. I didn't waste time, went to John 1, spoke of Thomas falling at Christ feet, declaring Him his Lord and God in worship. So they started quibbling and I cut them off. Told them, I'm sure you guys are fine fellows and all - and I'm no better than you are. "And I've studied this extensively, much of my adult life, and I believe Jesus is God. You don't. I doubt I'll convince you of whatever you're unwilling to accept. Good day!"

Questions for the CHRISTIANS here:

- How have you handled similar situations? How much or how lengthy have you dialogued with them? Have you ever gotten anywhere with them - or do you perceive you might have made them at least think about what they believe?

My concern is, in my impatience, knowing their typical resistance, maybe I cut them off too soon, without listening and thoughtfully responding. But I also know they've likely heard every point I might make. And so when people, uninvited, come to MY door, with an assertion that the God I worship and believe in isn't Who I think He is, then I"m pretty irked from the get-go. Maybe I'm already "loaded for bear" - so, how far should you go? Or not go?

Hahaha,

You've got more patience than I do.

When I see them coming, I just don't answer the door.

Maybe one of these days, I'll invite them in and have a conversation with them.

Then again, probably not.

Philip,

One of these days, I'm going to come to your house in a suit, and start a conversation with you, pretending I'm a JW. I just want to see your reaction. So, if you ever see a lone JW at your door, please don't shoot!

Philip wrote:I've got some questions for the Christians here, as to your responses and experiences as to visits from Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons.

First, today's encounter:

OK, my blood pressure is going back down a bit. Just got a random visit from two exceptionally polite Jehovah witnesses. We're in the middle of our five acres, so they had to come down a long driveway. They were wearing suits. I'm always careful when people I don't know enter our property. But as one was black and the other white, dressed as they were, I was fairly certain they were Jehovah Witnesses. Bingo! (but I could have guessed wrongly)

I asked why they were here, and they said something about their church. I immediately asked, are you guys Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons. "We're Jehovah Witnesses." I've not a lot of patience with their beating around the bush, so I told them they were wasting their time, because we believe Jesus is God and you don't. "Oh, we believe in Jesus." But you don't believe he is God, correct, I replied. I didn't waste time, went to John 1, spoke of Thomas falling at Christ feet, declaring Him his Lord and God in worship. So they started quibbling and I cut them off. Told them, I'm sure you guys are fine fellows and all - and I'm no better than you are. "And I've studied this extensively, much of my adult life, and I believe Jesus is God. You don't. I doubt I'll convince you of whatever you're unwilling to accept. Good day!"

Questions for the CHRISTIANS here:

- How have you handled similar situations? How much or how lengthy have you dialogued with them? Have you ever gotten anywhere with them - or do you perceive you might have made them at least think about what they believe?

My concern is, in my impatience, knowing their typical resistance, maybe I cut them off too soon, without listening and thoughtfully responding. But I also know they've likely heard every point I might make. And so when people, uninvited, come to MY door, with an assertion that the God I worship and believe in isn't Who I think He is, then I"m pretty irked from the get-go. Maybe I'm already "loaded for bear" - so, how far should you go? Or not go?

It has'nt happened to me in a long time but I don't mind discussing the bible with them,although I know they have been trained well and I probably won't change their mind.

I will say this though I think Jehovah Witness is the more deceptive of the two because they have translated the bible to say what they want it to say while Mormons rely on the bible and book of Mormon. I think it is easier to read the bible and the book of Mormon and realize how they don't line up like you are led to believe by them. But a Jehovah Witness pulls out their own translation of the bible and knows it well to decieve people.

Acb,

Invite them in and share the Gap Theory with them. I guarantee that they'll never come back again!

Acb,

Invite them in and share the Gap Theory with them. I guarantee that they'll never come back again!

Yep, right away, an asterisk goes on their list by ACB's address!

I enjoy talking to them. I ask them lots of questions, trying not to let on that I've studied the issues. Usually there is one who is a trainee and one who is the trainer. The trainers are impossible to reach, but it's fun to watch the trainees get worried. I also don't go straight for the big divisive issues (e.g., the Trinity). My thinking is that puts them on the grounds that they've been practicing on--in chess lingo, I like to get them out of their preparation. So, for me, that's gospel stuff. Focus on assurance issues and how we aren't saved by works. They always bring up James 2, which let's me have some more fun, since now we're on my turf. Eventually I can say with the best confused look I can, "Oh, so you don't believe in Jesus after all. Sounds like you're some of those Matthew 7 folks who are going to say 'Lord, Lord' and point out all those great works you've been doing, like coming here to my house and sharing your faith." And y'all have all heard my spiel from there--don't call God a liar and so on. Usually it's not long after that before one is dragging the other out the door and I'm inviting them to come back as soon as they can.

Never happens, but I'm hoping someday they'll come back with an elder. If they do, I'll pause the conversation when they bring up some verse and pull out my Byzantine and critical Greek texts and ask them which family they prefer to work from.

Jac3510 wrote:I enjoy talking to them. I ask them lots of questions, trying not to let on that I've studied the issues. Usually there is one who is a trainee and one who is the trainer. The trainers are impossible to reach, but it's fun to watch the trainees get worried. I also don't go straight for the big divisive issues (e.g., the Trinity). My thinking is that puts them on the grounds that they've been practicing on--in chess lingo, I like to get them out of their preparation. So, for me, that's gospel stuff. Focus on assurance issues and how we aren't saved by works. They always bring up James 2, which let's me have some more fun, since now we're on my turf. Eventually I can say with the best confused look I can, "Oh, so you don't believe in Jesus after all. Sounds like you're some of those Matthew 7 folks who are going to say 'Lord, Lord' and point out all those great works you've been doing, like coming here to my house and sharing your faith." And y'all have all heard my spiel from there--don't call God a liar and so on. Usually it's not long after that before one is dragging the other out the door and I'm inviting them to come back as soon as they can.

Never happens, but I'm hoping someday they'll come back with an elder. If they do, I'll pause the conversation when they bring up some verse and pull out my Byzantine and critical Greek texts and ask them which family they prefer to work from.

You're such a Greek Geek!

And I mean that as a term of endearment.

I don't know anyone else who gets excited, arguing Greek with a Jehovah's Witness.

Jac: Never happens, but I'm hoping someday they'll come back with an elder. If they do, I'll pause the conversation when they bring up some verse and pull out my Byzantine and critical Greek texts and ask them which family they prefer to work from.

Hey, THEN they might reconsider going back over to ACB's house to discuss a few more hours of GAP Theory! I mean, what could be more of a snoozefest - Jac lecturing over Greek, or tantalizing tidbits of the "Lost" World? Tough pick on that one, eh?

Hey, I love those guys. Because when they are all in about something, they are really ALL in to it! Seriously, I do dig their passion!

Actually, the vast majority of JWs can't read Greek. I don't argue it with them. When they make a point about it, once you ask them which family of texts they prefer--and they won't know how to answer and will already be uneasy--you then just hand them the text and ask them to read it for you. They'll have to acknowledge that they can't, and then you can force the real point--if they can't even read the text, how can they try to make an argument from it? The result is that they have to admit they are taking the view on faith. So their faith isn't based on what Scripture says after all but rather on what the church says. So their entire position is a circular argument. Case closed. Buh bye.

RickD wrote:Acb,

Invite them in and share the Gap Theory with them. I guarantee that they'll never come back again!

I doubt creationism would come up but if it did I would. But I'd more want to get into how they are pushing a false gospel and need to get out of it and get involved in a church that teaches the true gospel.

On a serious note, it takes a lot of patience to sincerely engage these guys. And when one knows almost certainly the best argument will not be received - well, the impulse is to simply dismiss and send them on their way. Which is why I like to cut to the quick about what they say Jesus is. Why beat around the bush, as that's the real issue.

Everyone doesn't have Jac's Greek training. And while most of us here know the issues they have, building a short but strategic, methodical case, quickly, isn't necessarily our strength. It would be interesting if a strategic, methodical, step by step strategy could be developed and posted on the site to utilize with both Mormons and JWs we might encounter. I've heard many say, the "fellow in training" - that's always their true target - as perhaps that person might be open to doubting what he's been force-fed by his church. A little doubt can be a powerful thing, if it's based upon good reasons to entertain it. Any thoughts on developing a strategic witnessing tool for these two cults? Or maybe someone can point to a thoughtful, knowledgeable step by step strategy? Although, I think after today my name probably has some notes beside it. Really, I was rather aggressive, but I tried to be civil. It's tough to talk to smiley faced people that are nice, etc., but that you know are there to change what you believe about God. Especially as THEY came up to YOUR door.

Here is a song to Jehovah Witnesses that has a lot of verses in it a person could write down to convince Jesus is God.

Jehovah
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcGZj4F62PA

I'm actually a little rusty when it comes to understanding Mormons and JW's and the best way to counter their arguments. I'd have to review abit. I recommend Larson's book of cults for a brief understanding of false religions and cults.There was a time when I actually took the time to study and look into false religions and I had a pretty good way of dealing with them if I ever encountered them,but its been awhile and I've been focusing on how to deal with atheists,etc for awhile. So I'm probably a little rusty.

Philip wrote:I've got some questions for the Christians here, as to your responses and experiences as to visits from Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons.

First, today's encounter:

OK, my blood pressure is going back down a bit. Just got a random visit from two exceptionally polite Jehovah witnesses. We're in the middle of our five acres, so they had to come down a long driveway. They were wearing suits. I'm always careful when people I don't know enter our property. But as one was black and the other white, dressed as they were, I was fairly certain they were Jehovah Witnesses. Bingo! (but I could have guessed wrongly)

I asked why they were here, and they said something about their church. I immediately asked, are you guys Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons. "We're Jehovah Witnesses." I've not a lot of patience with their beating around the bush, so I told them they were wasting their time, because we believe Jesus is God and you don't. "Oh, we believe in Jesus." But you don't believe he is God, correct, I replied. I didn't waste time, went to John 1, spoke of Thomas falling at Christ feet, declaring Him his Lord and God in worship. So they started quibbling and I cut them off. Told them, I'm sure you guys are fine fellows and all - and I'm no better than you are. "And I've studied this extensively, much of my adult life, and I believe Jesus is God. You don't. I doubt I'll convince you of whatever you're unwilling to accept. Good day!"

Questions for the CHRISTIANS here:

- How have you handled similar situations? How much or how lengthy have you dialogued with them? Have you ever gotten anywhere with them - or do you perceive you might have made them at least think about what they believe?

My concern is, in my impatience, knowing their typical resistance, maybe I cut them off too soon, without listening and thoughtfully responding. But I also know they've likely heard every point I might make. And so when people, uninvited, come to MY door, with an assertion that the God I worship and believe in isn't Who I think He is, then I"m pretty irked from the get-go. Maybe I'm already "loaded for bear" - so, how far should you go? Or not go?

You did well. I don't really converse with them anymore, partly because I'm a busy working mother and I'm already sick of door-to-door salespeople and telemarketers interrupting me. I had one Mormon (I think) lady who came to my door a few times back in New Zealand and we talked a bit about being saved by faith versus having to serve God, but I don't think I got very far with her.

Kerry always invites them into 'chat'...

But think we end up blacklisted cos they stopped coming