Evidence for God from Science

I know from prior readings of Paul's work that little details are inserted that normally escape a reader's attention. Same with parallelisms throughout the Bible, especially between OT and NT. These details are put in Scripture for a reason, but the reason isn't apparent without some research on many of them.

In our BSF class we're just out of John 6 but there is one set of details I have a question on. I've Googled and consulted study versions of the NIV and ESV but can't find any answers to my question. Knowing John put his Gospel together carefully and deliberately I feel there must good reason for their mention.

In John 6:9 there is the young boy standing by the large crowd with a basket of 5 small barley loafs and 2 small fish. The major focus of this story is the sign of feeding the large crowd from such a small amount of food. But knowing that details are included for a reason I started to wonder what was the significance of: mentioning that no leftover food be wasted but collected into 12 baskets and why mention it was a young boy?

I did find that it was Jewish custom to gather leftover food into a basket which they'd carry around all day and eat as they needed. So part of my question was answered on the leftovers.

The question that kept coming back to me is: Why mention the boy and specifically what was in his basket. Not finding anything close to an answer I'm turning to the forum for your thoughts.

Couple things I'm theorizing. This was the 4th sign and the number 4 is an earthly number. The food was produce of the earth, grain and fish. Barley being the grain of the poorer people.

Here's my thoughts on the young boy and food basket> He represents Christ holding the Food of Life for the multitude. The food looks to people as insufficient but in fact it is more than enough through the work of Christ by trusting in his command to feed the multitude. Enough to have leftovers to save for later.

Leftovers mean that people are full (obvious) and the saving of leftovers may represent the idea "you are full right now but you will need more as time passes to nourish you". Its the only thing I can think of to explain why this detail was included by John.
Then there's the 12 baskets for the leftovers. Represents tribes of Israel? Apostles?

Biggest question that keeps bugging me is who the young boy represents. I'm interested in everyone's thoughts about this story. To me it seems like a parable within a miracle.

Maybe he was mentioned because he was the only person who thought to bring anything to eat - or maybe it was his mum who thought of it. Maybe he doesn't really represent anything - it's just what happened.

JButler wrote:I know from prior readings of Paul's work that little details are inserted that normally escape a reader's attention. Same with parallelisms throughout the Bible, especially between OT and NT. These details are put in Scripture for a reason, but the reason isn't apparent without some research on many of them.

In our BSF class we're just out of John 6 but there is one set of details I have a question on. I've Googled and consulted study versions of the NIV and ESV but can't find any answers to my question. Knowing John put his Gospel together carefully and deliberately I feel there must good reason for their mention.

In John 6:9 there is the young boy standing by the large crowd with a basket of 5 small barley loafs and 2 small fish. The major focus of this story is the sign of feeding the large crowd from such a small amount of food. But knowing that details are included for a reason I started to wonder what was the significance of: mentioning that no leftover food be wasted but collected into 12 baskets and why mention it was a young boy?

I did find that it was Jewish custom to gather leftover food into a basket which they'd carry around all day and eat as they needed. So part of my question was answered on the leftovers.

The question that kept coming back to me is: Why mention the boy and specifically what was in his basket. Not finding anything close to an answer I'm turning to the forum for your thoughts.

Couple things I'm theorizing. This was the 4th sign and the number 4 is an earthly number. The food was produce of the earth, grain and fish. Barley being the grain of the poorer people.

Here's my thoughts on the young boy and food basket> He represents Christ holding the Food of Life for the multitude. The food looks to people as insufficient but in fact it is more than enough through the work of Christ by trusting in his command to feed the multitude. Enough to have leftovers to save for later.

Leftovers mean that people are full (obvious) and the saving of leftovers may represent the idea "you are full right now but you will need more as time passes to nourish you". Its the only thing I can think of to explain why this detail was included by John.
Then there's the 12 baskets for the leftovers. Represents tribes of Israel? Apostles?

Biggest question that keeps bugging me is who the young boy represents. I'm interested in everyone's thoughts about this story. To me it seems like a parable within a miracle.

Perhaps it is kind of like a parable with the boy representing little ol us who don't have much to offer but once we are saved and we have Jesus with us we can make an impact and feed a multitude of people,a lot more than we may realize.

JButler wrote:To me it seems like a parable within a miracle.

never reflected upon this being the "4th" sign, that is interesting, i'll have to think about that one.

Imo the "little child" is obviously a type of Christ, or Apostle of Christ, at least, and the reflections of the contents of the "basket" (which has significance in its relation to "mansions"), containing "5" "Barley" "loaves" and "2" "fishes," are all symbolic, 5 relating to man, to hands, barley being an "inferior" loaf, "2" being "for a witness," and even "fishes" being symbolic of people, one lesson here might be about how we actually grow in Christ, v what our common perception of the change actually is; or iow a restatement of "sown in corruption, raised in incorruption."

The "twelve baskets" are, to me, an obviously an allusion to the 12 tribes, who rep all people, hence "even this inadequate food is sufficient, and more than enough, for all people."

JButler wrote:I know from prior readings of Paul's work that little details are inserted that normally escape a reader's attention. Same with parallelisms throughout the Bible, especially between OT and NT. These details are put in Scripture for a reason, but the reason isn't apparent without some research on many of them.

In our BSF class we're just out of John 6 but there is one set of details I have a question on. I've Googled and consulted study versions of the NIV and ESV but can't find any answers to my question. Knowing John put his Gospel together carefully and deliberately I feel there must good reason for their mention.

In John 6:9 there is the young boy standing by the large crowd with a basket of 5 small barley loafs and 2 small fish. The major focus of this story is the sign of feeding the large crowd from such a small amount of food. But knowing that details are included for a reason I started to wonder what was the significance of: mentioning that no leftover food be wasted but collected into 12 baskets and why mention it was a young boy?

I did find that it was Jewish custom to gather leftover food into a basket which they'd carry around all day and eat as they needed. So part of my question was answered on the leftovers.

The question that kept coming back to me is: Why mention the boy and specifically what was in his basket. Not finding anything close to an answer I'm turning to the forum for your thoughts.

Couple things I'm theorizing. This was the 4th sign and the number 4 is an earthly number. The food was produce of the earth, grain and fish. Barley being the grain of the poorer people.

Here's my thoughts on the young boy and food basket> He represents Christ holding the Food of Life for the multitude. The food looks to people as insufficient but in fact it is more than enough through the work of Christ by trusting in his command to feed the multitude. Enough to have leftovers to save for later.

Leftovers mean that people are full (obvious) and the saving of leftovers may represent the idea "you are full right now but you will need more as time passes to nourish you". Its the only thing I can think of to explain why this detail was included by John.
Then there's the 12 baskets for the leftovers. Represents tribes of Israel? Apostles?

Biggest question that keeps bugging me is who the young boy represents. I'm interested in everyone's thoughts about this story. To me it seems like a parable within a miracle.

I never reflected upon this being the "4th" sign, that is interesting, i'll have to think about that one.

Imo the "little child" is obviously a type of Christ, or Apostle of Christ, at least, and the reflections of the contents of the "basket" (which has significance in its relation to "mansions"), containing "5" "Barley" "loaves" and "2" "fishes," are all symbolic, 5 relating to man, to hands, barley being an "inferior" loaf, "2" being "for a witness," and even "fishes" being symbolic of people, one lesson here might be about how we actually grow in Christ, v what our common perception of the change actually is; or iow a restatement of "sown in corruption, raised in incorruption."

The "twelve baskets" are, to me, an obviously an allusion to the 12 tribes, who rep all people, hence "even this inadequate food is sufficient, and more than enough, for all people."

JButler wrote:I know from prior readings of Paul's work that little details are inserted that normally escape a reader's attention. Same with parallelisms throughout the Bible, especially between OT and NT. These details are put in Scripture for a reason, but the reason isn't apparent without some research on many of them.

In our BSF class we're just out of John 6 but there is one set of details I have a question on. I've Googled and consulted study versions of the NIV and ESV but can't find any answers to my question. Knowing John put his Gospel together carefully and deliberately I feel there must good reason for their mention.

In John 6:9 there is the young boy standing by the large crowd with a basket of 5 small barley loafs and 2 small fish. The major focus of this story is the sign of feeding the large crowd from such a small amount of food. But knowing that details are included for a reason I started to wonder what was the significance of: mentioning that no leftover food be wasted but collected into 12 baskets and why mention it was a young boy?

....The question that kept coming back to me is: Why mention the boy and specifically what was in his basket. Not finding anything close to an answer I'm turning to the forum for your thoughts.

Couple things I'm theorizing. This was the 4th sign and the number 4 is an earthly number. The food was produce of the earth, grain and fish. Barley being the grain of the poorer people.

...Biggest question that keeps bugging me is who the young boy represents. I'm interested in everyone's thoughts about this story. To me it seems like a parable within a miracle.

Here are my thoughts on this are from the Hebrew Otiot (letter pictograph) and their numeric meanings before we get to whom and what the boy represents:

The Hebrew pictograph letter that looks like a basket is the letter Tet whose numeric value is 9. Tet means a gift basket, or to surround one with gifts from either a snake or from God...or from someone. Context it is used in determines the meaning. This is a hidden variable as it comes from the pictograph of the 9th Hebrew letter. Lay this number aside. We will come back to it in a moment.

The Boy offered his gifts to Jesus to use. Which consisted of 5 small barley loafs and 2 small fish.

Hebrew pictograph letters for 5 (Hey) and 2 (Bet) as they are the fifth and second letters of the Hebrew alphabet. Five (Hey) means revelation, grace, or judgment and two (Bet) means witness of truth verifying a fellowship of union or division within a household. Context of the passages these are found in help pinpoint the meaning further as follows:

So, the boy offered his gifts, all he had, to Jesus so Jesus can use to give further revelation of who he is and his grace to witness of truth to fill his house.

Now you have these numbers appearing 5 and 7 and add them together: 5+2=7

These numbers have meanings in Hebrew and tell a story inlayed within the context. Seventh letter is Zayin and its pictograph is of a plow and it means a plow, weapon, that which cuts off.

Seven's numeric meaning is perfection or better stated - resting in perfection, wholeness, soundness of what was plowed/planted, battled over: thus, the meaning of seven looks like this: what was plowed, fought for, which cuts off imperfection, unsoundness, un-wholeness so one rests in what God has done to make perfect, whole, sound….

What you have revealed by this method of noting symbols and the meanings of bible numbers is this:

The boy offered his gifts, all he had, to Jesus so Jesus can use to give further revelation of who He (Jesus) is and His grace to witness whose household He seeks to fill. Therefore, by the act of feeding all the people there, this act helps to plow/plant what will be needed later to make folks whole and sound in the Lord’s ways

Now let's add in the symbol for the boy’s basket which is the number 9 and then add 7+9=16. The total is 16.

16 is the Hebrew number denoting Love’s sanctifying work of joining tow hearts as one.

Add this to what we have so far:

The boy offered his gifts, all he had, to Jesus so Jesus can use to give further revelation of who he is and his grace to witness whose household he seeks to fill. Therefore, by the act of feeding all the people there, this act helps to plow/plant what will be needed later to make folks whole and sound in the Lord’s ways by an act of love which sanctifies and joins their hearts to the Lord.

Next, the number 12 for the total baskets filled. Twelve in Hebrew numbers means this: the harmony and unity of Governing order, of representative Leadership to teach and inspire responsibility to order. It is the number of Representative Leadership.

Now, yes, the baskets represent the 12 tribes of Israel and if you research the OT each tribe was to be represented in governing of Israel - see Deut 1:13 –

This symbolizes what God’s new leadership is to do, feed the food of God’s revelation to God’s household to make them strong in their faith in God alone.

Now go back and use the numbers seen within the text add them together, 5+2+12=19, the total comes to 19 and the number 19 means: Faith (in the Hebraic sense which is the wisdom faith brings that acts, does, obeys)

Let's add in the hidden number 9 for the boy’s basket. If you add that in 19+9=28 you get 28 and 28 means: Eternal Life, the leading of the Holy Spirit in the inner chamber of the heart that gives true purposeful meaning to one’s life and calling or it can mean another sort of spirit the leads a person which is not good.

Let us look at what we have so far:

The boy offered his gifts, all he had, to Jesus so Jesus can use to give further revelation of who he is and his grace to witness whose household he seeks to fill.

Therefore, by the act of feeding all the people there, this act helps to plow/plant what will be needed later to make folks whole and sound in the Lord’s ways by an act of love which sanctifies and joins hearts to the Lord.

That is to be carried out by God’s representative leadership to feed the food of God’s revelation to God’s household to make them strong in the faith.

Note what Jesus had the 12 disciples do midst the crowd...

Let us take the 12 baskets used and then apply the symbol letter for Basket which is the number 9 so you have 9x12. Which totals 108 and 108 means: Keeping / obeying Yahweh’s commands, words, or keeping another’s words, commands.

In context of the text the first meaning applies so you have this revealed:

The boy offered his gifts, all he had, to Jesus so Jesus can use to give further revelation of who he is and his grace to witness whose household he seeks to fill.

Therefore, by the act of feeding all the people there, this act helps to plow/plant what will be needed later to make folks whole and sound in the Lord’s ways by an act of love which sanctifies and joins hearts to the Lord.

That is to be carried out by God’s representative leadership to feed the food of God’s revelation to God’s household to make them strong in the faith.

So, the people can keep and obey Yahweh’s words and do them.

How many times did Jesus tell us to obey and do what he says in the Gospel accounts?

Now if I add all the numbers together 28+108 the total is 136 and 136 means simply: a Clean sound Heart.

So, the people can Keep and obey Yahweh’s words and do them to keep one’s heart clean and sound. Which is what Jesus was plowing/planting… by the feeding of the 5000+ people

Now get this, the number 5000 has within its meaning: the Hand (God's or man's per context) that extends grace, goodness, that guides, provides, and brings people into unity.

Isn’t that interesting….

Now let us finally add the symbols for Barley and fish symbols.

Barley symbolizes: the first harvest and it can also represent over comers, and even the control over passions one has...

Fish symbolizes: the Souls of men and women

Add these symbols to the story and you have this revealed:

The boy offered his first fruit harvest to help the Lord in his work of saving the souls of men and women. The boy overcame his own passionate need for food and gave his all to the Lord to reveal Himself so the souls of others can be brought into God's household by the revelation of God's grace.

Who or what the boy represents is explained below, so hold on...

Thus, boy offered his gifts, all he had, to Jesus so Jesus can use to give further revelation of who he is and his grace to witness whose household he (Jesus) seeks to fill.

Therefore, by the act of feeding all the people there, this act helps to plow/plant what will be needed later to make folks whole and sound in the Lord’s ways by an act of love which sanctifies and joins hearts to the Lord.

That is to be carried out by God’s representative leadership to feed the food of God’s revelation to God’s household to make them strong in the faith.

So, the people can Keep and obey Yahweh’s words and do them to keep one’s heart clean and sound. (How?)

By the hand of the Holy Spirit that extends God’s grace, goodness, that guides, provides, to bring God’s people into unity.

Now, what does the Boy represent is discovered within Malachi 4:6…

Please re-read John 6:8-14 and what do you see?
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PS to JButler: The forth Hebrew letter is Dalet and its picture is that of a doorway or pathway. It's number meaning is that of creative works...

Jesus' 4th creative work...opens a pathway... which again is noted in Malachi 4:6

Thanks for the in-depth explanation. I just knew there was more embedded in this story than the immediate obvious words and message. WOW!

I firmly believe God uses the natural curiousity I was born with to question deeper and explore further. Not just to help me understand and deepen my faith but to help others to realize there's far more to the Scriptures than meets the eye.

B.W. do you mind if I share this with my BSF class? They're well aware of my "fixation" with this Scripture.

JButler wrote:Thanks for the in-depth explanation. I just knew there was more embedded in this story than the immediate obvious words and message. WOW!

I firmly believe God uses the natural curiousity I was born with to question deeper and explore further. Not just to help me understand and deepen my faith but to help others to realize there's far more to the Scriptures than meets the eye.

B.W. do you mind if I share this with my BSF class? They're well aware of my "fixation" with this Scripture.

Yes, feel free to share it if you like.

Just note that most folks have no idea about biblical numbers and Hebrew Letters (otiot), or types, symbols, colors, stars, time, divine inspiration, feasts days foreshadowing Jesus, etc. When it comes to how bible numbers plus the old Hebrew pitograph letters (Otiot) help uncover layered meanings within the text they are found, people simply have no clue of the value. Instead, due to the flakes and profiteers are taught instead to view this as weird and thus shun it. However, when one honestly seeks the Lord and investigates it. One find themselves shedding their biases against it and slowly uncover that the numeric and letters method is like another language to learn.

I spent mucho time studying these. After longs hours of research of sorting through it all, I discovered that only God can inspire a book in which numbers and Hebrew Otiot (Letters) have shades of meanings just like any human language dictionary has. Knowing Hebrew and Greek helps too as from these you learn that one word very rarely has one - one size fits all definition to it. There are shades of meanings in the words we use everyday and only by the context they are used in can one actually derive the meaning one communicates in. Same goes for the Hebrew Otiot (Letters) and Hebrew numbers.

I thought about sharing this method to others as well as publishing my findings about how the Hebrew Otiot (Letters) and Hebrew numbers method works but I restrained myself because people, as they are, will abuse this system and twist it in ways it is not intended to work. You cannot use this to tell the future, or interpreted everything seen as some sign from God - that is stupid and not at all what this method does. I only share basics math algorithms.

The first one hundred to 400 numbers based on Hebrew Letter system are well documented as to their meanings but there is a lot of garbage out there too. People make the mistake of over simplifying the meanings to just one definition and negate the shades of meanings a word has per context it is used in.

To grasp this, look at the definition of the English word SHADE below:

Merriam Webster Dictionary wrote:Definition of shade from Merriam Webster Dictionary
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shade

Shade

1
a : comparative darkness or obscurity owing to interception of the rays of light
b : relative obscurity or retirement

2
a : shelter (as by foliage) from the heat and glare of sunlight
b : a place sheltered from the sun

3: an evanescent or unreal appearance

4 plural
a : the shadows that gather as darkness comes on
b : netherworld, hades

5
a : a disembodied spirit : ghost
b —used to signal the similarity between a previously encountered person or situation and one at hand ; usually used in plural <shades of my childhood>

6: something that intercepts or shelters from light, sun, or heat: as
a : a device partially covering a lamp so as to reduce glare
b : a flexible screen usually mounted on a roller for regulating the light or the view through a window
c plural : sunglasses

7
a : the reproduction of the effect of shade in painting or drawing
b : a subdued or somber feature

8
a : a color produced by a pigment or dye mixture having some black in it
b : a color slightly different from the one under consideration

9
a : a minute difference or variation : nuance
b : a minute degree or quantity

10: a facial expression of sadness or displeasure

The same goes for the Hebrew letter and number meanings. The context of the bible they are used in pinpoints the correct meaning. Once one understands this - you find out that only God could have put this book - His bible - to us all together. No human mind can do this. The Bible is clearly inspired by God and the method of study I mention provides His finger print on each page in a way that only the proud, the mocker, and the proverbial fool will deny.

So, yes, share this but make sure they understand it as a tool to help uncover and inspire inspiration from the bible.
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nice! i am getting from another source that the "men, reclining" on the grass is also whispering to us, the spiritual state of the people, reclining on the grass eating the meal.

And maybe it's Jesus Christ saying that to Him -- children are just as important as adults -- that 'little bit of food' was going to going a Long way with Left overs. Children maybe not have Much to give to Jesus -- but Jesus Will use 'that' for His glory and there will be More than enough to do the needed 'job'.

Sometimes we try to make a great deal out of something very simple.

to me that is kind of the cool part about Scripture being "living;" that It can continue to reveal truth in different ways, all in the same passage.

If you look at the history books of the bereans I think I spelled that right anyway they say that it was Mark, cause he was the youngest disciple and his mother followed Jesus before he did.

Sammytech84 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:36 pm If you look at the history books of the bereans I think I spelled that right anyway they say that it was Mark, cause he was the youngest disciple and his mother followed Jesus before he did.

Maybe so, Sammy. Welcome to GodandScience.org! Feel free to look around or post in any of the forums - you can choose one from here - or use the search feature at the top / right of the page!