Evidence for God from Science

What do you reckon?

To me, a real heaven would be here on earth, if the
day ever comes that we can have a real "Garden of Eden".

Some time when people learn to stop killing the animals,
and instead there is trust. Lions really would come to
get a torn pulled from their paw. You know?

I think I had a little glimpse of such a world years ago
in Sai Kung, China. On a nature trail, i stopped at a Buddhist
shrine.

It was so peaceful and beautiful there. Then I saw the cobra.

I did not move, but I was not afraid. We watched eachother for a long
time. Why should we tty to harm eachother, or be afraid?

It was such a magic moment.

Nessa wrote:What do you reckon?

Yes, no, or maybe.

Audie wrote:To me, a real heaven would be here on earth, if the
day ever comes that we can have a real "Garden of Eden".

Some time when people learn to stop killing the animals,
and instead there is trust. Lions really would come to
get a torn pulled from their paw. You know?

I think I had a little glimpse of such a world years ago
in Sai Kung, China. On a nature trail, i stopped at a Buddhist
shrine.

It was so peaceful and beautiful there. Then I saw the cobra.

I did not move, but I was not afraid. We watched eachother for a long
time. Why should we tty to harm eachother, or be afraid?

It was such a magic moment.

You're a regular 医生Dolittle.

Interesting questions, Ness. Here's some speculations:

Horses of fire are in the present Heaven (2 Kings 2:11)

White horses are in Heaven (Revelation 19:14)

We're told eight times in Revelation of “living creatures” in the present Heaven – they give glory, and honor and thanks to He that sits upon the throne. The word translated as “living creatures” is “zoon” – used throughout much of the New Testament and translated as “animal.”

The "living creatures" look like a lion, ox, man and eagle (Revelation 4:7)

Isaiah was likely speaking of an eternal Kingdom of God on the restored earth/new Heaven, when writing that “the wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox” - in the place where there will be no more sin, death, or suffering (Revelation 21:4).

Adam became, nephesh, a living being – a “soul” - and “nephesh" is used for both humans and animals. Does that mean you'll see “fido” again – I don't know. Animals certainly aren't made in the image of God. Perhaps animals are not only present in the Heaven now, but that the animal kingdom is expanded or newly created in the eternal restored earth/New Heaven merged.

Note that God, post the Flood, made a covenant with Noah that included the ANIMALS on the Ark: “I now establish my covenant with you and your descendants after you, and with every living creature that was with you – the birds, the livestock, and all the wild animals that came our of the ark with you – every living creature on earth....” And God told Noah the rainbow “is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and ALL life on earth.” (Genesis 9:9-17).

In Revelation 21:5, Jesus says, “Behold, I am making all things new.” What might “ALL” include?

In restoring the earth, what else might God also restore? I wonder if the animals, pre-fall, may have had much greater abilities? God took great pleasure in creating the creatures of the earth, and man has ruined so much of the animal kingdom's habitats, decimated species through toxins and over hunting. God is in the renewing and transforming business – would He not perhaps remake the animal kingdom in Heaven?

Whatever is there, I can guarantee that it will surpass any wonderful thoughts we might fantasize about it.

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:To me, a real heaven would be here on earth, if the
day ever comes that we can have a real "Garden of Eden".

Some time when people learn to stop killing the animals,
and instead there is trust. Lions really would come to
get a torn pulled from their paw. You know?

I think I had a little glimpse of such a world years ago
in Sai Kung, China. On a nature trail, i stopped at a Buddhist
shrine.

It was so peaceful and beautiful there. Then I saw the cobra.

I did not move, but I was not afraid. We watched eachother for a long
time. Why should we tty to harm eachother, or be afraid?

It was such a magic moment.

You're a regular 医生Dolittle.

And you are like me, always the charmer.

Philip wrote:Interesting questions, Ness. Here's some speculations:

Horses of fire are in the present Heaven (2 Kings 2:11)

White horses are in Heaven (Revelation 19:14)

We're told eight times in Revelation of “living creatures” in the present Heaven – they give glory, and honor and thanks to He that sits upon the throne. The word translated as “living creatures” is “zoon” – used throughout much of the New Testament and translated as “animal.”

The "living creatures" look like a lion, ox, man and eagle (Revelation 4:7)

Isaiah was likely speaking of an eternal Kingdom of God on the restored earth/new Heaven, when writing that “the wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox” - in the place where there will be no more sin, death, or suffering (Revelation 21:4).

Adam became, nephesh, a living being – a “soul” - and “nephesh" is used for both humans and animals. Does that mean you'll see “fido” again – I don't know. Animals certainly aren't made in the image of God. Perhaps animals are not only present in the Heaven now, but that the animal kingdom is expanded or newly created in the eternal restored earth/New Heaven merged.

Note that God, post the Flood, made a covenant with Noah that included the ANIMALS on the Ark: “I now establish my covenant with you and your descendants after you, and with every living creature that was with you – the birds, the livestock, and all the wild animals that came our of the ark with you – every living creature on earth....” And God told Noah the rainbow “is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and ALL life on earth.” (Genesis 9:9-17).

In Revelation 21:5, Jesus says, “Behold, I am making all things new.” What might “ALL” include?

In restoring the earth, what else might God also restore? I wonder if the animals, pre-fall, may have had much greater abilities? God took great pleasure in creating the creatures of the earth, and man has ruined so much of the animal kingdom's habitats, decimated species through toxins and over hunting. God is in the renewing and transforming business – would He not perhaps remake the animal kingdom in Heaven?

Whatever is there, I can guarantee that it will surpass any wonderful thoughts we might fantasize about it.

I've read the Isaiah passage, too, and wondered if that referred to the 1,000 yr reign of Christ or in heaven. Interesting.
One of my thoughts from years ago, if animals can go to heaven when they die, that they don't have a soul like we do and so when they die they simply decay in the ground. But there are animal cemeteries just like People cemeteries. They have no means of realizing sinfulness or asking forgiveness, can't pray, etc. But -- God's putting them in heaven, Himself, never really occurred to me until I saw that passage and you mentioned it here. God DID create the animal world First and Then people. Interesting

Nessa wrote:What do you reckon?

All living creatures, and every created thing, in the heavens (e.g., universe) and on earth, under the earth and seas I read in Scripture will be there (Rev 5:11-14):

• 11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice,
  
  “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
  13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
  
  14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

Add in the rest of nature (Earth) too with seas, rivers and mountains (Psalm 98:1-9):

• O sing to the Lord a new song,
  For He has done wonderful things,
  His right hand and His holy arm have [a]gained the victory for Him.
  2 The Lord has made known His salvation;
  He has revealed His righteousness in the sight of the nations.
  3 He has remembered His lovingkindness and His faithfulness to the house of Israel;
  All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
  4 Shout joyfully to the Lord, all the earth;
  Break forth and sing for joy and sing praises.
  5 Sing praises to the Lord with the lyre,
  With the lyre and the [c]sound of melody.
  6 With trumpets and the sound of the horn
  Shout joyfully before the King, the Lord.
  7 Let the sea roar and all it contains,
  The world and those who dwell in it.
  8 Let the rivers clap their hands,
  Let the mountains sing together for joy
  9 Before the Lord, for He is coming to judge the earth;
  He will judge the world with righteousness
  And the peoples with [e]equity.

Isaiah 55:12

• For you shall go out with joy,
  And be led out with peace;
  The mountains and the hills
  Shall break forth into singing before you,
  And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

If people haven't picked up in my posts here and there, I tend to think there is an underlying consciousness to nature, or spiritual guardians of/within such (i.e., while I haven't looked into it, maybe the four creatures in Revelations; four = symbol for earth / four "corners" of the Earth [North, South, East, West]). I lean towards both being the case.

Keep in mind Jesus rebuked the wind and commanded the sea to be still. (Mark 4:39) Yes, it could be merely poetic, but really I feel there is more to such, a consciousness to it all. We humans get in touch with such most closely via animals, such is perhaps the epitome of nature having personal contact with us and vice-versa.

So then, I see we really ought to pay Nature greater respect, as well as all of God's creation rather than rape and pillage such for our own limited comfort and pleasure. They too, may be witnesses against us, and our sin, should we face God's judgement.

Kurieuo wrote:

Nessa wrote:What do you reckon?

All living creatures, and every created thing, in the heavens (e.g., universe) and on earth, under the earth and seas I read in Scripture will be there (Rev 5:11-14):

• 11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice,
  
  “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
  13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
  
  14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

Add in the rest of nature (Earth) too with seas, rivers and mountains (Psalm 98:1-9):

• O sing to the Lord a new song,
  For He has done wonderful things,
  His right hand and His holy arm have [a]gained the victory for Him.
  2 The Lord has made known His salvation;
  He has revealed His righteousness in the sight of the nations.
  3 He has remembered His lovingkindness and His faithfulness to the house of Israel;
  All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
  4 Shout joyfully to the Lord, all the earth;
  Break forth and sing for joy and sing praises.
  5 Sing praises to the Lord with the lyre,
  With the lyre and the [c]sound of melody.
  6 With trumpets and the sound of the horn
  Shout joyfully before the King, the Lord.
  7 Let the sea roar and all it contains,
  The world and those who dwell in it.
  8 Let the rivers clap their hands,
  Let the mountains sing together for joy
  9 Before the Lord, for He is coming to judge the earth;
  He will judge the world with righteousness
  And the peoples with [e]equity.

Isaiah 55:12

• For you shall go out with joy,
  And be led out with peace;
  The mountains and the hills
  Shall break forth into singing before you,
  And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

If people haven't picked up in my posts here and there, I tend to think there is an underlying consciousness to nature, or spiritual guardians of/within such (i.e., while I haven't looked into it, maybe the four creatures in Revelations; four = symbol for earth / four "corners" of the Earth [North, South, East, West]). I lean towards both being the case.

Keep in mind Jesus rebuked the wind and commanded the sea to be still. (Mark 4:39) Yes, it could be merely poetic, but really I feel there is more to such, a consciousness to it all. We humans get in touch with such most closely via animals, such is perhaps the epitome of nature having personal contact with us and vice-versa.

So then, I see we really ought to pay Nature greater respect, as well as all of God's creation rather than rape and pillage such for our own limited comfort and pleasure. They too, may be witnesses against us, and our sin, should we face God's judgement.

Wow, I have never thought about nature having a consciousness of its own...

I really feel like it rings true. I think of how paul said creation groans as well

Kurieuo wrote:

Nessa wrote:What do you reckon?

All living creatures, and every created thing, in the heavens (e.g., universe) and on earth, under the earth and seas I read in Scripture will be there (Rev 5:11-14):



So then, I see we really ought to pay Nature greater respect, as well as all of God's creation rather than rape and pillage such for our own limited comfort and pleasure. They too, may be witnesses against us, and our sin, should we face God's judgement.

It would be terrific if Christians in general would take another look at such things.

If God declared all of his creation to be good, it may not be cool to decide to callously destroy,
or to hate anything. (How exactly can a thoughtful Christian "hate"spiders?)

So far , "dominion over" is translated more like
"the sooner it's dead, the sooner we will find out where it's money is hidden"
rather than compassionate nurturing.

How do you suppose it got that way?

I'm not sure I've come across a Christian who would hate animals or not want to look after the environment. Then again, the US is very different in this respect given the culture and nation was built upon much blood and many guns hence your right to bear arms (hopefully a Krink, right?).

So then, we have a pro-gun strong US nationalistic culture being mixed with Christian values. Nothing wrong with such necessarily, although I do see many American Christians not shying away from the hunt, and as a sport, and that never made sense to me. For survival, yes, but as a sport? Perhaps some of my American Christian friends here might understand, but I don't get it.

In fact, when I was a child, I wanted to go to Africa as a ranger to protect the lions, elephants, rhinos, gorillas etc -- which I knew meant fighting and shooting poachers. I see such as a good thing, not necessarily people being shot and dying, but protecting animals, even taking extreme measures, to protect them from going extinct.

Re: "dominion over", reality is humanity does have dominion over other creatures, I don't know what other is at the top of the food chain. We are made to be at the top (Gen 1:26), rulers over all other creatures, and yet it doesn't say abuse. Many Christians see such as as caretakers being made responsible over all of creation. The Landlord who owns it will one day return (Psalm 24:1), and then there will be an accounting. (Rev 11:16-18)

Read such in the context of many other passages. For example, consider these:

Genesis 2:15: The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and keep it. (i.e., take care of it)

Deuteronomy 25:4: “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing

Deuteronomy 22:6: “If you come across a bird's nest in any tree or on the ground, with young ones or eggs and the mother sitting on the young or on the eggs, you shall not take the mother with the young."

Exodus 23:4-5: “If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey going astray, you shall bring it back to him. If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying down under its burden, you shall refrain from leaving him with it; you shall rescue it with him.

Exodus 23:12a: "Six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you shall cease from labor so that your ox and your donkey may rest"

Proverbs 12:10: “Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.”

Jeremiah 2:7: "And I brought you into a plentiful land to enjoy its fruits and its good things. But when you came in, you defiled my land and made my heritage an abomination."

Jeremiah 12:4: How long will the land mourn and the grass of every field wither? For the evil of those who dwell in it the beasts and the birds are swept away, because they said, “He will not see our latter end.”

In response to the Pharisees, Jesus justified healing a man on the Sabbath comparing such with rescuing one's sheep (Matthew 12:11) saying: "What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out."

Revelation 11:16-18

• 16And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying:
  “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
  the One who is and who was,
  because you have taken your great power
  and have begun to reign.
  18The nations were angry,
  and your wrath has come.
  The time has come for judging the dead,
  and for rewarding your servants the prophets
  and your people who revere your name,
  both great and small—
  and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

I could go on, and yet, I'm sure there are cruel Christians out there. What do they say about serial killers? They are first cruel to and kill animals. There is a parallel drawn in Proverbs between someone who'd look after a fig tree, being one a master would also delight in. (Proverbs 27:18) Similarly, I reckon, the person who is cruel and doesn't care about animals would equally not care about people when it suits them and they can get away with it. Such, I'd call hypocrites, the type of Christian who is a poor representative, but I'll let God be judge.

Kurieuo wrote:I'm not sure I've come across a Christian who would hate animals or not want to look after the environment. Then again, the US is very different in this respect given the culture and nation was built upon much blood and many guns hence your right to bear arms (hopefully a Krink, right?).

So then, we have a pro-gun strong US nationalistic culture being mixed with Christian values. Nothing wrong with such necessarily, although I do see many American Christians not shying away from the hunt, and as a sport, and that never made sense to me. For survival, yes, but as a sport? Perhaps some of my American Christian friends here might understand, but I don't get it.

In fact, when I was a child, I wanted to go to Africa as a ranger to protect the lions, elephants, rhinos, gorillas etc -- which I knew meant fighting and shooting poachers. I see such as a good thing, not necessarily people being shot and dying, but protecting animals, even taking extreme measures, to protect them from going extinct.

Re: "dominion over", reality is humanity does have dominion over other creatures, I don't know what other is at the top of the food chain. We are made to be at the top (Gen 1:26), rulers over all other creatures, and yet it doesn't say abuse. Many Christians see such as as caretakers being made responsible over all of creation. The Landlord who owns it will one day return (Psalm 24:1), and then there will be an accounting. (Rev 11:16-18)

Read such in the context of many other passages. For example, consider these:

Genesis 2:15: The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and keep it. (i.e., take care of it)

Deuteronomy 25:4: “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing

Deuteronomy 22:6: “If you come across a bird's nest in any tree or on the ground, with young ones or eggs and the mother sitting on the young or on the eggs, you shall not take the mother with the young."

Exodus 23:4-5: “If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey going astray, you shall bring it back to him. If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying down under its burden, you shall refrain from leaving him with it; you shall rescue it with him.

Exodus 23:12a: "Six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you shall cease from labor so that your ox and your donkey may rest"

Proverbs 12:10: “Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.”

Jeremiah 2:7: "And I brought you into a plentiful land to enjoy its fruits and its good things. But when you came in, you defiled my land and made my heritage an abomination."

Jeremiah 12:4: How long will the land mourn and the grass of every field wither? For the evil of those who dwell in it the beasts and the birds are swept away, because they said, “He will not see our latter end.”

In response to the Pharisees, Jesus justified healing a man on the Sabbath comparing such with rescuing one's sheep (Matthew 12:11) saying: "What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out."

Revelation 11:16-18

• 16And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying:
  “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
  the One who is and who was,
  because you have taken your great power
  and have begun to reign.
  18The nations were angry,
  and your wrath has come.
  The time has come for judging the dead,
  and for rewarding your servants the prophets
  and your people who revere your name,
  both great and small—
  and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

I could go on, and yet, I'm sure there are cruel Christians out there. What do they say about serial killers? They are first cruel to and kill animals. There is a parallel drawn in Proverbs between someone who'd look after a fig tree, being one a master would also delight in. (Proverbs 27:18) Similarly, I reckon, the person who is cruel and doesn't care about animals would equally not care about people when it suits them and they can get away with it. Such, I'd call hypocrites, the type of Christian who is a poor representative, but I'll let God be judge.

I've read the book, which is why I find it odd and sad that so few seem to take what it says
seriously. I dont much know what Hindus are expected to know and do.

You may have not quite gotten whst I said about hating spiders. Not hating nature as a whole,
it is picking and choosing from what God declared to be good, and hating this one, or that.

Wouldn't a Christian properly have a spiritual duty to overcome any such feeling, same as to
love thy enemy?

On the guns bit, I am so accustomed to Smerican values, it seems normal until I go look back
from Hong Kong. . Maybe time spent in Oz would also lead to seeing things differently.

My sojourn into "gun culture" started when I armed myself in fear of being attacked. I no longer own a gun, dont want one. I had a number of ideas about guns and gun owners that were ignorant stereotypes, tho no doubt there are those out there who are worse than I ever imagined.

I dont btw see anything non-Christian in regulated hunting or fishing tho I prefer the Buddhist idea of being kind to animals by not eating them..tho alas I have a weakness for seafood.

How is hunting against Christian values?

Guns for self-defense is a complex one. It looks as if "conclealed carry" is a booming trend,
with very problematic aspects. This "constitutional carty" with people packing military looking
rifles to the grocery store is crazy.

A lot of Americans see their Constitution as all but dictated by God, so it's a weird mix of
things going on.

None of it relates to the topic much tho.

Do you think people in OzOz have a more Christian / nurturing / respectful way of treating
nature than do Americans? (No fair counting Texas)

Audie wrote:To me, a real heaven would be here on earth, if the
day ever comes that we can have a real "Garden of Eden".

Some time when people learn to stop killing the animals,
and instead there is trust. Lions really would come to
get a torn pulled from their paw. You know?

I think I had a little glimpse of such a world years ago
in Sai Kung, China. On a nature trail, i stopped at a Buddhist
shrine.

It was so peaceful and beautiful there. Then I saw the cobra.

I did not move, but I was not afraid. We watched eachother for a long
time. Why should we tty to harm eachother, or be afraid?

It was such a magic moment.

The bible mentions a future time when the animals and people will be at peace. Isaiah 11:6 and Isaiah 65:25. It's thought that this is referring to the Millennial kingdom when Jesus rules from Jerusalem, but can also apply to the new heavens and new earth.

If Jesus rides on a white horse then there are animals in heaven...

Rev 19:11 NKJV, "Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war."

2Ki 2:11-12 NKJV, "Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, "My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!" So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces."
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