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Is there solid evidence that it was God who wrestled with Jacob?
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:24 am
by TheOneWhoAsks
And not just an angel? Just by reading the account it doesn't really specify who the man was until the very end, before that it's vague enough to allow for anything really. And some might argue that Jacob saying that he saw God "face to face" was A. Allegorical or B. Merely his opinion.
Re: Is there solid evidence that it was God who wrestled with Jacob?
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:20 am
by PaulSacramento
Do you not think that Jacob understood what happened to him?
The Angel of God was God's representative, He stood for God and was God in every sense of the word.
Jacob believed Him to be God.
So, He was God AND He was a messenger (Angel) of God, in short, He was the embodied "second YHWH", The "son of Man of Daniel, The Son of God.
Look at the account:
Genesis 32:22-31English Standard Version (ESV)
Jacob Wrestles with God
22 The same night he arose and took his two wives, his two female servants, and his eleven children,[a] and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 He took them and sent them across the stream, and everything else that he had. 24 And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. 25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the day has broken.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28 Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” 29 Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. 30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel,[c] saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.” 31 The sun rose upon him as he passed Penuel, limping because of his hip.
Jacob didn't know Who the man was BUT He wanted Him to bless him ( Jacob) and that means that man was at least divine in Jacob's eyes ( Jacob didn't know the man so it wasn't the same as getting a blessing form his father for example).
The man then tells Jacob that he will be know as Israel because he has struggled with God ( EL).
When Jacob asks for His name he gets the answer that all prophets tend to get at one point or another.
All this allows Jacob to conclude that the Man was God, or better, the embodiment of God.
Re: Is there solid evidence that it was God who wrestled with Jacob?
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:32 pm
by SoCalExile
Remember, "angel" in Hebrew (malach) and Greek (angelos) literally mean "messenger", and can refer to a human or heavenly messenger. Wherever you see THE Angel (Messenger) of the Lord, it is the eternal, incarnate Son, and not a cheribim/seraphim.
Re: Is there solid evidence that it was God who wrestled with Jacob?
Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:27 am
by TheOneWhoAsks
PaulSacramento wrote:Do you not think that Jacob understood what happened to him?
The Angel of God was God's representative, He stood for God and was God in every sense of the word.
Jacob believed Him to be God.
So, He was God AND He was a messenger (Angel) of God, in short, He was the embodied "second YHWH", The "son of Man of Daniel, The Son of God.
Look at the account:
Genesis 32:22-31English Standard Version (ESV)
Jacob Wrestles with God
22 The same night he arose and took his two wives, his two female servants, and his eleven children,[a] and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 He took them and sent them across the stream, and everything else that he had. 24 And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. 25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the day has broken.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28 Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” 29 Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. 30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel,[c] saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.” 31 The sun rose upon him as he passed Penuel, limping because of his hip.
Jacob didn't know Who the man was BUT He wanted Him to bless him ( Jacob) and that means that man was at least divine in Jacob's eyes ( Jacob didn't know the man so it wasn't the same as getting a blessing form his father for example).
The man then tells Jacob that he will be know as Israel because he has struggled with God ( EL).
When Jacob asks for His name he gets the answer that all prophets tend to get at one point or another.
All this allows Jacob to conclude that the Man was God, or better, the embodiment of God.
But the man was never really identified with the Angel of the Lord.
I'm curious though, are there any instances of people asking for God's name and are given a similar response?
Re: Is there solid evidence that it was God who wrestled with Jacob?
Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:23 am
by PaulSacramento
You have to deduce that it was the Angel of the Lord by other references in Genesis.
The only EXPLICIT statements made in the story are:
The Man renames Jacob to Israel because Jacob has struggled with God.
Jacob states that He has seen the face of God.
Hence the man was God BUT we also know that no man can see God and live ( at least not in the flesh) and we know that the Angel of God appears to people ( like Jacob and Moses) and is called God.
The first instance of God making His Name know is to Moses BUT His name is already know by the traditions of Moses people, that is why when Moses says the IAM sent him, they know it MUST have been IAM because how would Moses know that name?
YaHVeh means I Am That I Am, its not so much God's name as it is a statement that He needs no name or title.
He IS GOD.
Re: Is there solid evidence that it was God who wrestled with Jacob?
Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:19 am
by B. W.
TheOneWhoAsks wrote:And not just an angel? Just by reading the account it doesn't really specify who the man was until the very end, before that it's vague enough to allow for anything really. And some might argue that Jacob saying that he saw God "face to face" was A. Allegorical or B. Merely his opinion.
It cannot be implied that Jacob wrestled with a mortal man or an angelic being due to the context, text, and grammar used. Jacob would be lying if he said he wrestled with God's presence if it was not God himself he wrestled with.
Next look at this verse...
Gen 32:30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved."
Next, notice third person speech God uses when speaking of himself and notice how God tells Jacob plainly whom he wrestled was...
Gen 35:1 Then God said to Jacob, "Arise, go up to Bethel and live there, and make an altar there to God, who appeared to you when you fled from your brother Esau."
Now continue... on in chapter 35...
Gen 35:9 Then God appeared to Jacob again when he came from Paddan-aram, and He blessed him.
Gen 35:10 God said to him, "Your name is Jacob; You shall no longer be called Jacob, But Israel shall be your name." Thus He called him Israel.
Gen 35:11 God also said to him, "I am God Almighty; Be fruitful and multiply; A nation and a company of nations shall come from you, And kings shall come forth from you.
Gen 35:12 "The land which I gave to Abraham and Isaac, I will give it to you, And I will give the land to your descendants after you."
Gen 35:13 Then God went up from him in the place where He had spoken with him. NASB
God confirms things in triplicate... the third time confirms a matter. He did so with the promises he made to Abraham...
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Re: Is there solid evidence that it was God who wrestled with Jacob?
Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:13 pm
by thatkidakayoungguy
Why does God speak in third person a lot?
Re: Is there solid evidence that it was God who wrestled with Jacob?
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:04 am
by neo-x
thatkidakayoungguy wrote:Why does God speak in third person a lot?
It could just be a literary device used by the author to truly confirm between the person who wrestled and who he claimed he was, so he leaves no doubt and like a conclusion he spells it out. The important thing here wasn't the wrestling, but who Jacob wrestled with and thus the "Name" which was given to Jacob. As far as the author is concerned he is creating a solid foundation for the ideological and divine conception of Israel for future reference.
Re: Is there solid evidence that it was God who wrestled with Jacob?
Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:21 am
by SoCalExile
In Hebrew culture, to name something is to have dominion over it.
Also, "angel" in Hebrew (malach) literally means "messenger" and refers to role rather than origin; thus, "The Messenger of the Lord" is in reality the eternal Christ revealing Himself in the OT.