Evidence for God from Science

Below you will find a list of an astounding number of amazing scientific evidences that PROVE it isn't reasonable to doubt God's existence!

To believe the many astounding, contingent things on the list below could appear without some extraordinary Intelligence behind them - really, such belief would be to assign pure magical abilities to blind, random, non-intelligent things - all of which HAD to require some super-intelligent, all-powerful originating Source. And that originating Source HAD to have pre-existed ALL other first things that came into existence at the moment the universe began (approximately 14 billion years ago - at the moment the Big Bang event first started). As EVERYTHING logically came from some ORIGINAL Source, then nothing else would have pre-existed so as to create that First Source. AND, that Source could not have created itself - meaning that the Original Source of ALL past and presently existing things HAD to be eternal, as well as supremely intelligent and unfathomably powerful! To dismiss that such a mountain of scientific evidences would not require some astonishing, stunningly powerful Intelligence is to believe in uncaused magic - or in "Pop Metaphysics."

Note that the evidences on the below list all come from the wide consensus of verifiable scientific observations, countless studies, research and facts. And, just to add, pure speculation, interesting conjecture and mere theories as to some possible explanations for whatever else might have been the cause of the universe, no matter how much scientific jargon and lingo is used in the theory, remains untestable and unprovable by the scientific method. And no conjecture changes the necessary characteristics the First Source of all things HAD to have! Science cannot test beyond or for what was before the things that first came into existence and IMMEDIATELY emerged at the moment of the Big Bang, the universe's beginning event, nearly 14 billion years ago. Science cannot test for metaphysical speculations or for ANY potential originating alternative cause that preceded the building blocks of the physical universe, thus regulating all such theories about a Godless origin of the universe to the realm of interesting, but mathematically unlikely and unprovable metaphysics.

Big Bang Timeline of the UNIVERSE'S FIRST SECOND to THREE MINUTES - per extensive data, differing types of Science Studies, Data and Calculations
Here, the very first second of the Big Bang's beginning is detailed, per the enormous consensus of most physicists. Two clear things about this that are so amazing: A) There is a moment in which NO matter exists - not even atoms - and in a mere second, an astonishing sequence of incredible things of great precision of immediately begin obeying complex laws; B) There are no billions of years involved in what developed, in under one second, as these things instantly roared into existence with unfathomable power, and on an immense scale:

(Per extensive compiled data from many scientific disciplines and correlating studies. As astrophysicist Hugh Ross is fond of emphasizing, the inflationary big bang theory is, by far, the most accepted theory of the origin of the universe, by physicists and cosmologists. All evidence gathered to date supports this theory. Other theories rely upon sets of unlikely circumstances or phenomenon which can never be tested or proven - in other words, mere unprovable speculation and conjecture).

The Universe's first second to three minutes (The Big Bang's beginning moment):

(per godandscience.org)

0 second to 10-43 second: We know only that point that at least 9 dimensions of space existed as what is called singularity. All of the universe-to-be existed as a point of no volume. Time as we know it was created.

10-43 second: Also known as Planck time. This is the point at which gravity, one of the four unified forces (gravity, electromagnetism and the weak and strong nuclear forces), became separate from the remaining three forces.

10-36 second: The strong nuclear force (the force that holds the nuclei of atoms together) separated from the other three unified forces.

10-36 to 10-32 second: Immediately following and triggered by the separation of the strong nuclear force, the universe expanded rapidly for this brief period of time.

10-32 to 10-5 second: The universe is filled with quarks, anti-quarks, and electrons. The quarks and anti-quarks combine and annihilate each other. Quarks are in excess of anti-quarks by a ratio of 1,000,000,001 to 1,000,000,000. The remaining quarks will make up all the matter that exists in the universe.

10-12 second: The final two unified forces split from one another. Electromagnetism, which controls the attraction of negatively and positively charged particles, becomes separate from the weak nuclear force, which controls radioactive decay.

10-5 second: The universe cools to 1,000,000,000,000°K allowing quarks to combine to form protons and neutrons, the building blocks of atomic nuclei.

1st second to 3 minutes: The universe continues to cool, allowing protons and neutrons to combine to form the nuclei of future atoms.

Incredible 4-Part List of the astounding number of essential, mathematically, stupendously fined-tuned parameters that collectively work together for life in the universe to even be possible - as without any one of them, life as we know it could not exist, anywhere:

Part 1: Fine-Tuning for Life in the Universe — lists 140 individually, massively complex features of the cosmos as a whole (including the laws of physics) that must fall within exceptionally narrow ranges to allow for the possibility of physical life's existence (see this link): http://d4bge0zxg5qba.cloudfront.net/fil ... _part1.pdf

Part 2: Fine-Tuning for Intelligent Physical Life—describes 402 quantifiable, necessary characteristics of a planetary system and its galaxy that must fall within very narrow ranges so as to allow for the possibility of advanced life's existence. This list includes commentary upon how a slight increase or decrease in the value of each characteristic would impact that possibility: (see this link): http://d4bge0zxg5qba.cloudfront.net/fil ... _part2.pdf

Part 3: Probability Estimates for Features Required by Various Life Forms—identifies 922 characteristics of a galaxy and of a planetary system physical life depends on and offers conservative estimates of the probability that any galaxy or planetary system would manifest such characteristics. This list is divided into three parts, based on differing requirements for various life-forms and their duration: (see this link): http://d4bge0zxg5qba.cloudfront.net/fil ... 3_ver2.pdf

Part 4: Probability Estimates on Different Size Scales for the Features Required by Advanced Life—presents a breakdown of the characteristics required by advanced life (from Part 3) as they must occur, separately, in the galaxy cluster, galaxy, star, planetary system, planet, moon, planetary surface, and ecosystem where advanced life exists: (see this link): http://d4bge0zxg5qba.cloudfront.net/fil ... 4_ver2.pdf

The Amazing, Complex "Language" of DNA: The sequencing of the human genome in the year 2000 revealed how the 3 billion letters of A, C, G and T, that the human genome consists of, are ordered. However, knowing just the order of the letters is not sufficient for translating the genomic discoveries, as one also needs to understand what the sequences of letters mean. In other words, it is necessary to identify the ‘words’ and the ‘grammar’ of the language of the genome. (sciencedaily.com)

To grasp the amount of DNA information in one cell, "a verbal reading of that code at a rate of three letters per second would take 31 years, even if reading continued day and night." Wait, there's more. It has been determined that 99.9% of your DNA is similar to everyone's genetic makeup. What is uniquely you comes in the fractional difference in how those three billion letters are sequenced in your cells. (sciencedaily.com)

Analysis reveals that the grammar of the genetic code is much more complex than that of even the most complex human languages. Instead of simply joining two words together by deleting a space, the individual words that are joined together in compound DNA words are altered, leading to a large number of completely new words. Just as former, world-famous atheist, turned theist, Dr. Antony Flew questioned: It is legitimate to ask oneself regarding this three billion letter code instructing the cell...who wrote this script? Who placed this working code, inside the cell? (Everystudent.com)

Circular DNA Discoveries - show DNA to be FAR more complex than even previously known (see this link): http://jonlieffmd.com/blog/circular-dna ... complexity

So, to one contemplating the mind-boggling list above, as to how life is even possible - do you believe in some vast complex, unintelligent, blind magic that operates on the scales of the universe, its physics and chemistries, with its instant moment of beginning, and at the microscopic and quantum levels - all of which things were and are necessary, collectively, as well as individually and interactively, for there to be life at all? Because those who do have such a faith in such magical forces, have faith FAR beyond what any rationalist should find reasonable - as its a belief in what is possible per the blind, non-intelligence-derived metaphysics of some unknown magic - and a magic we can scarcely even understand, it is so complex.

But blind things cannot: Create themselves, plan, organize, recognize advantages of synergistic relationships, design, etc. (think about this when you contemplate the list above!). Without being controlled by some Super Intelligence, all such initial things could do would be to blindly and chaotically bump into each other - and even then, they would first have to have been created / couldn't self-create. But from the very first second of the universe, chaos is NOT what occurred. That things were IMMEDIATELY organizing and obeying sophisticated laws, and on an astonishing scale, is quite apparent - and they began to do so, in ONE, mere second!

So, the obvious question is:How much faith does one have in the abilities of random, non-intelligent, blind things to create, design and organize such astonishing, massively complex things, on such a scale? And look at that very first second of the Big Bang - is it reasonable to think that blind, unintelligent things, even if they perhaps existed in some pre-physical dimension - could make such things become physical, much less with the INSTANT characteristics they necessarily had? I would strongly suggest thinking such things are possible, without some Super Intelligence behind them, is simply irrational - and far beyond reasonable to presume possible. And to do so, takes exceptional faith in what non-intelligence, randomness, pure chance and chaos can produce. And for one who has bought into a Godless universe, I would also ask myself, why do I have such faith in what doesn't seem reasonable to believe possible.

So, might you likely have some inner motivation within you that is negating your common sense and reasoning to believe that such an astonishingly complex universe, which began in a mere moment, with incredible things of great complexity and marvelous designs, IMMEDIATELY appearing, independently as well as cooperatively interacting with great sophistication and INSTANTLY obeying very strict laws of operation - that these many incredibly things merely got here by pure, uncaused/unguided, blind chance??? Just WOW - what enormous faith it takes to believe such things are possible! ANYONE who has such a faith in pure chance and blind, unintelligent things - they have FAR more faith than I could ever have. My faith is a rational one, as I believe ALL things, effects and processes need a previously existing Cause!

If you'd further like to explore evidences for the God of the Bible and the Christian faith, please go to the following link: http://www.godandscience.org/. So, whether you are an agnostic, atheist, deist, are merely skeptical about whatever aspects concerning God's existence, or even a believer with questions or doubts about various contents of the Bible, you'll find answers to all manner of doubts and questions addressed on godandscience.org. Its website offers an amazing number of resources of evidences and answers - from science, history, philosophy, archaeology, Scripture, scholarship, and more.

Or if you'd also like to talk online or debate with well-informed, well-educated Christians and non-Christians (around the world) concerning your questions or whatever you might think to be true or false concerning these many issues surrounding the Christian faith and the Bible, then please check out the Godandscience.org Discussion Forum at the following link: http://discussions.godandscience.org/

How does this in anyway suggest that a God did it? It doesn't matter how you load your default argument with conditions and limitations, you still must DISPROVE all materialistic possible explanations. Anyone can set conditions, make truth claims, or argue from ignorance. But that doesn't make your conclusion correct. Words, without direct physical evidence or observations, make any truth claim merely a matter of faith. Remember this is not about suggesting that science is incorrect, but proving that you are. Don

TrulyE: How does this in anyway suggest that a God did it? It doesn't matter how you load your default argument with conditions and limitations, you still must DISPROVE all materialistic possible explanations. Anyone can set conditions, make truth claims, or argue from ignorance. But that doesn't make your conclusion correct. Words, without direct physical evidence or observations, make any truth claim merely a matter of faith. Remember this is not about suggesting that science is incorrect, but proving that you are. Don

Truly, Truly, what it DOES prove, is there HAD to be some A) immensely intelligent, B) unfathomably powerful, C) eternal entity that D) had such an ability to create these things, as we know what happened, with a great deal of certainty, at the moment of the Big Bang, and what things came into existence. INSTANTLY, things of complex designs appeared and IMMEDIATELY began obeying sophisticated laws - things that a mere moment before did not exist! And not just random, chaotic things, but the very NECESSARY things to produce our universe and to eventually make life possible. And from the moment the universe began, there began controlled order and precision. The physical, beginnings of atoms, all that, appeared in mere moments, instantly with these amazing characteristics, and that those things MUST have a source - because NOTHING comes from nothing! And random, blind things don't see, hear, recognize possibilities or advantages, plan, strategize, build ANY kind of intelligence - whether simple or complex - much less have the awesome intelligence required to build and orchestrate a universe's beginnings, that physicists and astrophysicists just now barely understand. So, WHATEVER you call that Source from which the universe began, you must admit that it had the capabilities inherent in and those attributes (A,B,C&D) - else, neither we, nor the universe we see around us, would exist. We have absolutely NO example of such things popping into existence, nor of ANYTHING that didn't come from or wasn't the result of some other previously existing thing or processes. And if one talks of faith - WOW, the faith required to believe these things can happen without an intelligence behind them, or that blind, random things can produce such - I've not near that kind of delusional faith! Do you? So the question becomes: WHAT, or rather Who (remember, this is some Great Intelligence) was that beginning Source? There's far more concerned, but I'll stop there.

But welcome, Truly, to the forum!

Really good list. I used to read a bible which referenced archeological findings with each relevant verse. For instance the Pharoh forcing the Jewish slaves to make bricks without straw and carbon dating evidence.

Thank You Philip. I'm afraid that this PROVES nothing of the kind. The patterns observed in nature have always been simplicity, growth, death(except the humble jellyfish), and rebirth. From the simplicity of Planck's Time and Length, to the separation of the 4 natural forces and the Higgs Field, to the formation of Hydrogen, stars, planets, and Galaxies, complexity has always evolved from simplicity. Did you know that even the most complex math, is merely simple addition? This is also the pattern that we observe in all naturally occurring and man-made things. There are no exceptions. What might appear intelligent to you, might appear idiotic to me. What might appear complex to you might appear simple to me. Both are subjective interpretations based on ones level of experience, knowledge, and cultural predisposition. I'm also afraid that NOTHING that is temporal can be eternal, and also exist in our 4 dimensional reality. To exist without a cause is to exist without time. This is impossible and defies the laws of causality, unless you can demonstrate that it doesn't? This is not to say that no other realities(multiverse) can exist out there. But if there ARE other realities that exist, they too will be naturally occurring.

It also took 380,000 years after the BB before hydrogen and helium could capture electrons to form stable orbits(not instantly). It took over 100 Million years before the first stars began to shine. We KNOW that virtual particles DO pop in and out of existence by the measurable pressure they exert in vacuum experiments. So please no more something from nothing, unless you would like to define and demonstrate an example of ABSOLUTE NOTHING?

Finally, all your examples of "fine tuning", "probability", "design", "complexity/intelligence" arguments, have been thoroughly debunked. If this is only your belief, then evidence is unnecessary. But if you are appealing to the supernatural(not transcendent) as an explanation, then extraordinary evidence(physical or fallacy-free logic) is definitely necessary. Don

What do you think the probability of our parents meeting and deciding to produce us would be? What do you think the probability of each of their' parents, getting together to produce our parents would be? And so on and so on, until we reach the meeting of our first parents. Now lets add to this total probability/chance, all the possible circumstances and events that must have occurred to lead our first parents(ancestors) to meet. Add to this all the possible circumstances and events that led to all our parents meeting, from the beginning until now. Lets then include the possibility of our(and them) surviving fetal development, early childhood, disease, war, natural disasters, hunger, famine, etc. Now lets add to this probability/chance all the adverse circumstances and events that would have prevented any such meetings from ever occurring in the first place. Finally, what if we add to this probability/chance, that out of the unimaginable vastness and largely uninhabitable and hostile universe, that a planet could be formed that was capable of creating, evolving, and sustaining life as we know it for billions of years? What do you think the probability/chance of all these events happening, JUST TO PRODUCE YOU would be? Regardless of the astronomical improbability of these events ever happening, THEY DID IN FACT HAPPEN!

We are all very special and unique, without appealing to the supernatural for credit. We are the product of millions of years of evolution, and trial and error(99% extinct species), and parents that are survivors. DNA is NOT a code, it is a molecule. Protein synthesis and other biochemical processes are not biological designs, they are biophysical cellular functions, that are certainly not perfect(disease, mutations, ageing, etc.). No one KNOWS what the universe was like before Planck Time! We simply do not know WHY or HOW the universe began. But assigning it a supernatural explanation, will only raise more questions than answers. So again, if this is only your belief, so be it. Otherwise, it is what it is. Don

TrulyE: all your examples of "fine tuning", "probability", "design", "complexity/intelligence" arguments, have been thoroughly debunked.

You mean the fine-tuning doesn't exist???!!! Please explain how they don't exist.

The first three minutes of the physical universe beginning:

10-32 to 10-5 second: The universe is filled with quarks, anti-quarks, and electrons. The quarks and anti-quarks combine and annihilate each other. Quarks are in excess of anti-quarks by a ratio of 1,000,000,001 to 1,000,000,000. The remaining quarks will make up all the matter that exists in the universe.

10-12 second: The final two unified forces split from one another. Electromagnetism, which controls the attraction of negatively and positively charged particles, becomes separate from the weak nuclear force, which controls radioactive decay.

10-5 second: The universe cools to 1,000,000,000,000°K allowing quarks to combine to form protons and neutrons, the building blocks of atomic nuclei.

1st second to 3 minutes: The universe continues to cool, allowing protons and neutrons to combine to form the nuclei of future atoms.

OH, these aren't massively complex things??? They aren't IMMEDIATELY obeying precise laws? How so? That is laughable to suggest!

TrulyE: Finally, what if we add to this probability/chance, that out of the unimaginable vastness and largely uninhabitable and hostile universe, that a planet could be formed that was capable of creating, evolving, and sustaining life as we know it for billions of years? What do you think the probability/chance of all these events happening, JUST TO PRODUCE YOU would be? Regardless of the astronomical improbability of these events ever happening, THEY DID IN FACT HAPPEN!

Yes, and they are ENTIRELY dependent upon what came into existence within minutes! Evolution has nothing to say about what those processes are entirely dependent upon, and 10 billion years before there is even any simple life - which, SOMEHOW managed to come into existence.

We are all very special and unique, without appealing to the supernatural for credit. We are the product of millions of years of evolution, and trial and error(99% extinct species), and parents that are survivors.

TrulyE: DNA is NOT a code, it is a molecule.

Ignorance of that it does not make up a complex code and language doesn't refute its reality!

TrulyE: Protein synthesis and other biochemical processes are not biological designs, they are biophysical cellular functions, that are certainly not perfect(disease, mutations, ageing, etc.).

They indeed do have design. And guess what, a cell can't evolve, because ALL of it's components must be together at once, before it can function as a cell. The components have to SIMULTANEOUSLY be present. As for "imperfect" designs, such an assessment depends upon what you think certain things were designed for. THIS universe was not created to last forever!

TrulyE: No one KNOWS what the universe was like before Planck Time! We simply do not know WHY or HOW the universe began.

But we DO know what showed up, instantly - and they check every possible box for indications of an Intelligence behind the designs.

TrulyE: But assigning it a supernatural explanation, will only raise more questions than answers.

Actually, an Intelligence explains it. But NO intelligence, a universe not existing, and a moment later, with stupendous things, via only blind, random, non-intelligent things - now THAT begs MANY more questions, because we have no observation EVER that shows such things to be possible - not logically, not scientifically.

Truly, what do you believe the capabilities are of blind, unguided, unintelligent things - what capabilities do you believe they have? Because I believe you think they can do astonishing magic on an unfathomable scale - which is irrational to believe. AS without an intelligence behind what showed up and that instantly became physical/matter, etc., you must believe in magic. Oh, what faith that takes!

The fine tuning argument(FTA) is not an argument from probability or design, it is an argument from intuition. In fact it is more an argument AGAINST the existence of God. In probability calculations, the sum probability of all possible outcomes must equal 1, as probability values are always between 0 and 1. This means that if I buy a lotto ticket there are a finite number of outcomes I can expect. If I bet on all possible outcomes, I would have a 100% chance of winning(1). If I don't buy a ticket, then I would have a 100% chance of not winning(0). This means that the possible values of any and all physical parameters(FTA) can be and may be infinite. If this the case, then figuring out the probability from an infinite set cannot be summed into a sum probability of 1. This is because the sum of all possible outcomes in the infinite set IS INFINITY. Thus the probability of these values being what they are, is not calculable. Why would an all-powerful and all-knowing God, be constrained by laws, absolutes, and other natural limitations anyway? What other Universe can we compare ours to, to determine if ours is indeed fine tuned? Are humans so arrogant to even think that our entire Universe was fine-tuned only to support human life? Why would an entire universe need to be created at all? What an incredible waste of resources and energy! Just like the "Weak Anthropic Principle", these assumptions merely lack imagination, and represent a gross limitation of the use of current scientific knowledge.

Another assumption implicit in the FTA is that the basic physical constants must remain static throughout time and space. This may NOT be the case, considering the possibility of a parallel universe, the multiverse, a cyclic universe, and the expansion and acceleration of time and space. The only thing that we can posit, is that within this insignificant tiny part of the universe that we inhabit, is that the right parameters for the conditions to produce our kind of life does exist. This is only because the parameters have changed over billions of years, until they have reached a point that they have produced such conditions.

So please no more FTA, unless you can produce evidence that can clearly demonstrate what IS the finite number of possibilities and outcomes to produce a universe or life itself. Or can provide an example of any failed universe(s), and why? Maybe you could also provide evidence to support that this fine-tuning was designed exclusively for carbon-based evolved primates with over-developed limbic systems, that also possess an evolved ability for introspection, language, and conscious self-awareness? Maybe you can? Don

As I have stated before, it has taken almost 380,000 years before the hydrogen and helium nuclei could capture an electron to form a stable atom. This DID NOT happen instantly after the BB. I was not talking about the strong nuclear forces that are responsible for the formation of atomic nuclei(including quarks and leptons). It is the formation a stable element that give atoms their specific properties, including their MASS. I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make regarding your BB time line. I also can't see any direct or implied relationship between the evidence from the BB and an Intelligent Design. Matter(not particles) is composed of stable atoms(not simply atomic nuclei), which indeed took hundreds of thousands of years to form after the BB. If you tossed a coin in the air enough times, you will begin to see a pattern of equal amounts of heads and tails. Is this evidence that random chance is intelligent or designed? Of course not! But, if you wish to see design in snowflakes, natural disasters, supernova, black holes, or the human condition, it will always be from your own subjective perspective, not from any scientific perspective. Science operates(or should) from an objective perspective. Are you suggesting that "intelligence" is the answer to all questions relating to the creation of objective reality? I simply disagree. Can't we simply include, "I just don't know" as a plausible answer, especially to questions that only a God could answer?

You asked me, what "the capabilities are of blind, unguided, unintelligent things - what capabilities do you believe they have"? Although I disagree with the words that you use, the outcome is still the same, YOU! These random, blind, unguided, unintelligent events and circumstances, produced YOU! Not only YOU, but ALL life as you know it.

You have touched on too many topics, and have made too many unsupported assertions for me to respond to in one post. So can you stick to just one topic at a time? DNA is a molecule and not a man-made code like Morse, or Binary. Biological patterns and processes are far more adaptable and flexible than that. We use the term code only to describe the sequence of nucleotides(codon) that are necessary to produce one amino acid. Even though more than one sequence can code for the same amino acid(precursor to proteins). This ability to recognize patterns is an evolutionary trait necessary for our survival. No intelligence is required or necessary. Since you have ignored my subjective view of design, it would be pointless to reiterate this rationale again. Finally, you stated that cells don't evolve. If this were true then all the different types of human cells COULD NOT have come from the earliest stem cells. They must have started initially as muscle, heart, lung, nerve, or bone cells. This of course would be impossible! Almost all cells have the capacity to differentiate or become modified, given the right stimuli or modification. This also includes the immortal cancer cell.

I certainly don't believe in the existence of magic, the supernatural, ghost, spirits, or any superstitions as having any sound footing in science. But it is becoming apparent that you do. Don

*Brute facts walks in*
"hello everybody!"
LOL.

Truly E: You asked me, what "the capabilities are of blind, unguided, unintelligent things - what capabilities do you believe they have"? Although I disagree with the words that you use ...

Why would you not like these words - unless you believe that there are vast limitations suggested by them? And there are - as each word's meanings asserts strict parameters and limitations!

TrulyE (doubles down): The outcome is still the same, YOU! These random, blind, unguided, unintelligent events and circumstances, produced YOU! Not only YOU, but ALL life as you know it.

TrulyE: I certainly don't believe in the existence of magic, the supernatural, ghost, spirits, or any superstitions as having any sound footing in science.

Ah, but you DO believe in magic - that blind, unguided, non-intelligent, random things can produce breathtaking complexity and designs on a scale we can scarcely fathom - not to mention the massive complexity of what showed up within the first three minutes of the Big Bang. So, yes, you DO apparently believe in MAGIC - as I don't have that kind of faith. Of course, it's not even science-based, because science cannot measure before the BB - science can only measure the physical. So what you assert is possible is only pure belief, but is unsubstantiated by many hundreds of years of scientific observations. And the more science knows, the more ridiculous is that anyone believes that blind, non-intelligent things can produce such complexity and order. Further, while I realize you believe it, please tell us HOW blind, unguided things can do these amazing magic tricks, and on so vast a scale?

The universe is

"stupendously fined-tuned parameters that collectively work together for life"

Andromeda crashes with the Milky Way = End of life
A fine-tuned, intelligence-based, designed, universe should never do that; and the reason why I have never been impressed with this line of argument.

Just my two cents.

neo-x wrote:The universe is

"stupendously fined-tuned parameters that collectively work together for life"

Andromeda crashes with the Milky Way = End of life

And yet it hasn't.

neo-x wrote:A fine-tuned, intelligence-based, designed, universe should never do that;

Says who? And more importantly, why? That's a ridiculous assertion, knowing the world as we know it is not perfect (nor was it intended to be, particularly when viewed through a theistic prism).

neo-x wrote:and the reason why I have never been impressed with this line of argument.

Just my two cents.

It is rather impressive, if used properly as evidence, not proof.

Neo:
Andromeda crashes with the Milky Way = End of life
A fine-tuned, intelligence-based, designed, universe should never do that; and the reason why I have never been impressed with this line of argument.

Just my two cents.

Neo, God did not create ALL of the universe to have places conducive to life and beauty - some of it is quite destructive, even across the earth. And God also did not create human bodies to last for ever in this age and dimension. When God created us, gave us free will, He nonetheless had always known of the death and mayhem that would occur - and not just at the hands of man, but as to how He created things to function. This universe and us were created for THIS time and for God's purposes for it - no more, no less. So it is useless to project human understandings upon how much of it is violent and doesn't make sense, or isn't tranquil and in perfect harmony per it's designs. Does Christ/God becoming a man, so clueless, evil men could beat him horribly, torture Him to death? Of course that is not how WE would have created the scenario. We are mere slugs crawling through the mud, in comparison to the knowledge and purposes of God. Your human logic as to how things should be are pointless. The universe - at least as far as earth is concerned - was prepared for the day God would put life and humans here. He created but one being like us (on earth) - and He has purposes for us and our universe. Not one aspect of the creation is out of sync with God's purposes for it. If you believe in an uncontrolled universe, you're in no better shape than the pure materialist. But make no mistake, God is ultimately in control, else He would not be GOD!

Byblos wrote:

neo-x wrote:The universe is

"stupendously fined-tuned parameters that collectively work together for life"

Andromeda crashes with the Milky Way = End of life

And yet it hasn't.

It is going to. Just a matter of time.

neo-x wrote:
A fine-tuned, intelligence-based, designed, universe should never do that;


Says who? And more importantly, why? That's a ridiculous assertion, knowing the world as we know it is not perfect (nor was it intended to be, particularly when viewed through a theistic prism).

Logic and reason!
Sorry, when you make an intelligent design, do you make another design that obliterates your first intelligent one?
Do you make a car with broken brakes and call it fine tuned or intelligent?
Set two cars on a collision course and call it intelligent or fine-tuned?

The argument is against fine-tuning and intelligent design, for life. Both of which are in question here.
My two objections, for starters, are:
1. In a fine-tuned universe specifically designed for life, why would you throw a life-ending wrench into it, when you just designed it for the exact opposite purpose?
2. The rate of inflation and expansion of the universe will either mean a crunch or a cold ever-expanding universe, in both cases, it's a death warrant for life on the universal scale. This flies in the face of fine-tuning and intelligent design for life.

It is rather impressive, if used properly as evidence, not proof.

Perhaps to the glory of God, not necessarily as evidence of the existence of Him.