Evidence for God from Science

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B. W. wrote:There is one thing that this proves...

Allah is certainly not merciful or kind nor is Islam a religion of tranquil peace...


Islam preaches world domination, period. Peace in Islam means submission not peace as majority of folks mean.

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Allah is just another name for God... Like Jehovah or "Jah".

Islam preaches domination and "conversion" through the sword. While this "Christian" nation called U S of A ... does it. We are using the sword. They just preach it in the Quran. Which is worse?

Blessed wrote:

B. W. wrote:There is one thing that this proves...

Allah is certainly not merciful or kind nor is Islam a religion of tranquil peace...


Islam preaches world domination, period. Peace in Islam means submission not peace as majority of folks mean.

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Allah is just another name for God... Like Jehovah or "Jah".

Islam preaches domination and "conversion" through the sword. While this "Christian" nation called U S of A ... does it. We are using the sword. They just preach it in the Quran. Which is worse?

Blessed,

I think you need to prayerfully rethink your position.

RickD wrote: Blessed,

I think you need to prayerfully rethink your position.

Rick,

I understand Muslims are responsible for terrorist attacks worldwide. Therefore I'm technically incorrect when I say they just talk about it. So I can see how that would sound very stupid on my part.

However ... in the aggregate ... When you compare the numbers of people killed in Muslim terror attacks vs. U.S-Isreal-allied led invasions ... It's a shower vs a waterfall.

We have killed way more Muslims than vice versa. Ron Paul says ... the main reason they are over here is because we are over there.







If we weren't over there fighting wars for Israel.. If we just left each other alone and followed the Constitution and a non interventionist foreign policy ... everything would be better. Fences and neighbors etc.

Blessed wrote:
Allah is just another name for God... Like Jehovah or "Jah".

If we weren't over there fighting wars for Israel.. If we just left each other alone and followed the Constitution and a non interventionist foreign policy ... everything would be better. Fences and neighbors etc.

You have a really naive view of Islam in general, and certainly don't understand that these Muslim terrorists are doing what their god and their "holy" book require.

Allah is not just another name for God. Allah is a false god.

The fact that you don't know this, as a Christian, is very troubling.

RickD wrote:

Blessed wrote:
Allah is just another name for God... Like Jehovah or "Jah".

If we weren't over there fighting wars for Israel.. If we just left each other alone and followed the Constitution and a non interventionist foreign policy ... everything would be better. Fences and neighbors etc.

You have a really naive view of Islam in general, and certainly don't understand that these Muslim terrorists are doing what their god and their "holy" book require.

Allah is not just another name for God. Allah is a false god.

The fact that you don't know this, as a Christian, is very troubling.

My University had a diversity program in dormatory housing where they mixed everyone up by race religion and nationality in order to prepare students for the "real world". So I had roomates from every race, religion etc. During this time I also had some Muslim roomates. I became friends with a Muslim from Lebanon who I later lost touch with. He was a really good guy. Just a moderate. No extremism at all.

I understand there is an extremist sect of Islam who are doing what they say the Quran requires. There is a huge history of this in Islam. I understand this. But I also understand extremists of all religions exist and when you put extremists in powerful government positions, they call the shots. But I don't know the percetage of Muslims who agree with Islamic extremism. If that makes sense.

I was told that Allah is just another name for God. The same God worshipped by the Jews. If I am wrong please feel free to let me know so I may reexamine this.

You're not wrong. Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God in their own ways. Unfortunately, in recent years, and especially since 9/11, some Christian conservatives have taken to denying that fact.

Those same people tend to denying that the violence between Muslims and the West could possibly be the result of anything other than the teaching of the Koran.

Personally, I generally agree with you and Ron Paul about this. We've been projecting power into the Middle East for decades, and obviously that pisses people off. I don't accept the premise that if we were to simply pack up and leave things would be better - at this point we're too enmeshed in the economics and politics of the Middle East for that to be possible - but if we acted less like an 800 pound gorilla I think things would improve in time.

One thing is completely certain, though. Terrorism isn't a problem that can be bombed out of existence.

Allah as found in the Quran, who wills both evil and good, is very different from that of Judaism and Christianity.

No, Jews, Christians and Muslims to NOT worship the same God but in different ways.
Not sure how many times that needs to be said.

Let's end all these nonsense assertions that the Qur'an teaches the same God as in the Christians' Bible:

The Qur'an teaches that Jesus was no more than another prophet, and denies Jesus' divinity, crucifixion and resurrection - and it asserts the belief in Jesus is God - THE central teaching of Christianity, found across the New Testament, is blasphemy to Allah!

Per the Qur'an Surah passage references:

The Bible teaches Jesus IS God, is eternal, as if the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Qur'an denies this – saying Jesus was merely another prophet of Allah's – and thus was a created being:

Surah 2:136 We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them . . .

The Bible says Jesus was crucified and was Resurrected – but the Qur'an denies it:

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";-but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

Again, the Qur'an says Jesus was not God, was only a messenger and denies the Trinity:

4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth.
More contradiction: Allah (God) is not Christ!

Surah 5:17 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary.
Jesus accepted worship as God, and claimed to be God (“I am”) - the Qur'an asserts belief Jesus was God to be blashphemy against Allah.

Surah 5:72 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode.

More Qur'an assertions Jesus was ONLY a messenger, not God:

Surah 5:75 Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food.

Qur'an hate-causing passages of the Qur'an against the Jews:

Surah 5:78 Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.

A double Qur'an contradiction - as Jesus DID accept worship and claim to be God, and He never asserted such about His mother Mary:

5:116 Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart . . ."

Another Qur'an contrast to show that those following Allah believe differently than Christians do, about God – and its contempt that “Christians call Christ the son of Allah (of God):

Surah 9:30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah.

Surah 9:31 They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

Jesus claim to be God is denied in the Qur'an:

Surah 19:19 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son."

The Qur'an on Jesus Himself states He is only a prophet:

Surah 19:30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet."

Qur'an sarcasm per the belief of Christians, per Scripture:

Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"

Surah 19:91 That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.

19:92 For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

The Qur'an asserts Jesus said He was only a messenger and pointed to another one after Him – both contradictions of Scripture – in fact, Jesus said the entirety of the Old Testament pointed to Him, and the New Testament ends with NO future prophet as asserted, and only in looking forward to Jesus' future return:

Surah 61:6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

Per various popular translations of the Qur'an, a denial of Jesus' Crucifixion and Resurrection:

Haleem—[Jews] said, ‘We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God.’ (They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him.)

Sahih International—And for their saying, ‘Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.’ And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but another was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Yusuf Ali—That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah’; – but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

If not accepting Jesus as God means that you don't believe in the same God as the Christians then Jews and Christians don't worship the same God, either. Except that they do. As do the Muslims. They all worship the same God - the God of Abraham - but they have different beliefs about that God.

Ed: If not accepting Jesus as God means that you don't believe in the same God as the Christians then Jews and Christians don't worship the same God, either. Except that they do. As do the Muslims. They all worship the same God - the God of Abraham - but they have different beliefs about that God.

Jews and Muslims who don't believe Jesus is God do not believe in God as the Bible says He is. God cannot both be Jesus and NOT Jesus. He's either one or the other - He either is God or is a mere created Being. He either died and was Resurrected, or not. Christians believe in the God who came to earth in the form of a baby, lived, taught, did miracles, was crucified, died for us, was physically resurrected, and will return. This Jesus who was God says that ALL must come to faith in Him - or they will not be saved. All non-Messianic Jews and Muslims are in denial of who the Bible says God actually is, and WHAT He is (also Jesus and the Holy Spirit). When Muslims assert that Jesus (who the Bible says is God), is NOT God - then they do not believe in the same God. It's not just a matter of semantics and meaningless nuances.

edwardmurphy wrote:If not accepting Jesus as God means that you don't believe in the same God as the Christians then Jews and Christians don't worship the same God, either. Except that they do. As do the Muslims. They all worship the same God - the God of Abraham - but they have different beliefs about that God.

Ed, they (Muslims) can believe they worship the same God that Abraham worshipped. But that doesn’t mean they actually are, that is just what they believe.

I don’t know what Muhammad saw when he was alive. I don’t think the angel, Gabriel, helped him communicate with God / Allah. Because the things recorded in the Koran abrogate and violate the character of God already established in scripture. Once you dig a little deeper into both the religion of Islam and Christianity, you see stark contrast that can be linked back to their founding documents. I see very few similarities between the two besides prayer and community values.

Also I feel like a new topic is needed at this point to discuss further the dichotomy of Allah and Yahweh.

Muhammad merely co-opted belief in the teachings already widely believed, per 1,500 years of God sending prophets and apostles to convey his words and understandings. And then, nearly 600 years after the Bible was completed, he tacked onto them personal writings that he could not authenticate the source of - as his writings greatly contradict key Biblical truths (automatically making them suspect, as they are heretical!). He basically goes off in a dark corner and comes out with these writings. All of the prophets of the Bible were widely recognized in Israel as God's annointed ones. They also, like the apostles, did miracles that showed they did not speak merely their own words. They had ability to make accurate predictions. And these many apostles and prophets recognized their predecessors and contemporaries and agree upon the same truths. Muhammad did NO miracles and was basically a warlord who converted the conquered at the threat of a sword.

But lies are always far more successful when attached to already believed and established truth - ESPESCIALLY when associated with a mortal threat if denied! Which Muhammad well knew and utilized.

edwardmurphy wrote:If not accepting Jesus as God means that you don't believe in the same God as the Christians then Jews and Christians don't worship the same God, either. Except that they do. As do the Muslims. They all worship the same God - the God of Abraham - but they have different beliefs about that God.

I'm surprised you care so much about this Ed. I detect you think that because some here say Muslims worship a different "God", that you must think it is because of some anti-Muslim sentiments that lay beneath some here, a desire to create disunity, villainise Muslims or some such nonsense? I assure you, there are none here who harvest bad feelings towards Muslims yet we do Islamic ideology which carries many different and harmful beliefs.

Many inter-religious programs seek unity between people of different religions through either relativising or discarding truth claims, or downplaying certain beliefs/dumbing down each religion. That will never work, especially if the goal is to reach out to those who take their beliefs about God as real and seriously as needing to breath air. Rather, the better solution is to find personal unity while understanding differences and allowing another to believe even if they're wrong. While seeing their (Muslim) Allah isn't our (Christian) God is a division to do with truth claims, we can obviously have many friendships with people who believe differently, even passionately so. So a division in beliefs, need not lead to a division in personal relationship. For example, it doesn't hurt me that a Muslim would think and say Jesus isn't God, didn't rise from the dead, was merely a prophet, etc. Yet, I know that many Muslisms are taught that the worst sin in the world is shirk, which they see Christians practicing. So should this be ignored? I'd expect nothing less from an honest Muslim then to reject the God Christians believe in. I'd not want them to dumb down their beliefs, or for some "middle ground" to be reached that waters down and distorts either Islamic or Christian beliefs (like these programs often do). These programs also often water down Christain beliefs, and crucial ones that matter, as some on this board (Christian2) have had contact with in inter-religious programs some denominations or churches run.

You mention Jews and Christians, and you are right we don't have the same God either. Not as modern day orthodox Jews believe, yet God being understood in multiple persons is actually something pre-Christian and found in certain ancient Jewish thoughts which attempt to reconcile how God revealed Himself in their own texts. Just like Sudduccees vs Pharisees, there were Jewish people who identified in their own texts a multi-personal nature to God (e.g., Benjamin Sommer's book, The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel). So then, a trinitarian conception of God, is arguably within the boundaries of Jewish tradition, and I'd argue is more Jewish (indeed
Christ as the awaited Messaiah being the completion of Israel's story with God), although no orthodox Jew would accept such (to do so would make them Christian).

At the end of the day Islam, Christianity, Judaism are three different religions with different beliefs that cannot be united. We may all be monotheistic, though Christianity is often rejected by they other two as being polytheistic, we may all accept Abraham and his God, and yet, our beliefs are very different, theology is very different, such that to say we believing in the same God would be like saying Newton and Einstein believed in the same physics or something such.

At the end of the day Jews, Christians and Muslims all have different beliefs about God's ontology - God's being and nature, God's divine attributes, and also what God expects from us. Given these differences, what Muslims believe is God vs what Jews believe in as God vs. what Christians believe in as God are different... Logically each are different, even if all three draw from similar or same origins (e.g., Abraham).

Kurieuo wrote: At the end of the day Islam, Christianity, Judaism are three different religions with different beliefs that cannot be united.

...but they all worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.