Evidence for God from Science

This thread comes after phils comment in the billy graham thread.

I think it's simple but also complex. A paradox perhaps.

Like waving to someone across the street may seem 'simple' but on one hand it is also a complex action that needs certain things to take place to cause it to happen.

I guess my fear here is over simplifying the gospel and causing false messages that cause false conversions.

Thoughts?

Perhaps the complexity comes through our desire to "work" to God whether such is through (self-)righteous acts or rational thinking. At the end of the day, it is so simple that a child can be saved.

At the end of the day, it is so simple that a child can be saved.

I came to belief at age 7 - I didn't know much, didn't know the cost, didn't really understand how bad god views sin, etc. - but I knew enough an truly believed and desired Jesus, committed myself to Him.

Philip wrote:

At the end of the day, it is so simple that a child can be saved.

I came to belief at age 7 - I didn't know much, didn't know the cost, didn't really understand how bad god views sin, etc. - but I knew enough an truly believed and desired Jesus, committed myself to Him.

But the question is, did you choose to believe?

Nessa wrote:This thread comes after phils comment in the billy graham thread.

I think it's simple but also complex. A paradox perhaps.

Like waving to someone across the street may seem 'simple' but on one hand it is also a complex action that needs certain things to take place to cause it to happen.

I guess my fear here is over simplifying the gospel and causing false messages that cause false conversions.

Thoughts?

The gospel is simple. Trust Christ. Period.

And for the record, I was almost 7 when I made the choice to believe in Christ.

I definitely agree a child can be saved and its that simple.

But if its so simple that you just have to say a prayer then why arent more people in heaven... because I think we all know that although salvation is free, Jesus wants all of us. And to be on the throne of our lives oppose to us ruling our own lives.

Do you really believe it's the prayer that saves? Isn't prayer more a "sign", an end result, of a causal change that happens more inwardly with our disposition towards God i.e., in our heart? If you understand that, then you should see why not all will be in heaven through merely repeating words like they're suppose to conjure up some magic.

Again, I don't believe Graham saved anyone. I see such as faulty Evangelical thinking, that anyone saves. Him getting people to repeat words didn't save a person, and if that is what Graham thought then he was wrong. Rather, he was a vessel who lead many people to the alter, and no doubt he would have hoped all saying the prayer were sincere and had a heart change. Yet, it's at this level, when a person hears the Gospel and is lead in prayer, it's really over to the individual.

So I believe that the formula is generally correct that Graham advocated, of having people say the prayer, but it's also not that simple for reasons just mentioned -- it involving a true response from an individual.

Nessa wrote:I definitely agree a child can be saved and its that simple.

But if its so simple that you just have to say a prayer then why arent more people in heaven... because I think we all know that although salvation is free, Jesus wants all of us. And to be on the throne of our lives oppose to us ruling our own lives.

The prayer doesn't save. We are saved by God's grace, through faith.
It's our faith in response to God's grace that saves, not a prayer.

RickD wrote:

Nessa wrote:I definitely agree a child can be saved and its that simple.

But if its so simple that you just have to say a prayer then why arent more people in heaven... because I think we all know that although salvation is free, Jesus wants all of us. And to be on the throne of our lives oppose to us ruling our own lives.

The prayer doesn't save. We are saved by God's grace, through faith.
It's our faith in response to God's grace that saves, not a prayer.

I agree... its not the simplicity of a prayer (or anything else that we can do).
Its the simplicity of a child's faith...
"My daddy can do anything, and I trust him implicitly to take care of me."

RickD wrote:

Philip wrote:

At the end of the day, it is so simple that a child can be saved.

I came to belief at age 7 - I didn't know much, didn't know the cost, didn't really understand how bad god views sin, etc. - but I knew enough an truly believed and desired Jesus, committed myself to Him.

But the question is, did you choose to believe?

And did you choose to believe in something or to not believe in the other thing?

Look at the simple statements of the saved thief crucified next to Jesus. In front of God / Jesus, his words speak acknowledgement of his sin; He truly believes Who Jesus is (God!), by noting the Heavenly Kingdom to come was that of Jesus and that He was without sin; See the contrast as the unrepentant thief mocks Jesus, while the saved one asks, doe he not fear God, in the context of speaking of Who Jesus is; And then the saved thief voices his desire to Jesus to be part of His Kingdom ("Jesus remember me...").

So these statements of the saved thief aren't a polished prayer, but show a sorrowful heart, a belief in Jesus as God, capped by a request to be with Jesus in His Kingdom. And they come from a heart and mind that have changed towards God, with words of faith and repentance in front of Jesus - so the thief's expressions are not mere words, but show a sincere, inner faith. I can imagine that every word the thief said was done in great agony and with immense difficulty. This thief finally had realized exactly Who and what Jesus is. And while he may not have had sophisticated theological understandings, he clearly knew AND SINCERELY BELIEVED AND DESIRED enough basic truths about Jesus to be saved.

Putting trust and faith in someone else is always the hardest thing.
That is why, for some, it is easier to believe in "works" based salvation and a "laundry list" of things to do to "earn" salvation.

Putting trust and faith in someone else is always the hardest thing.
That is why, for some, it is easier to believe in "works" based salvation and a "laundry list" of things to do to "earn" salvation.

Yep - there wasn't too much time for the saved thief to do any "good works."

Many people need to "see" that they are doing something, so they go to church and volunteer and do things to "prove" they deserve to be saved.
Doing things is great, we should help those that we can help and preach the gospel in all ways BUT not because we want to "prove" ourselves or because we want to "deserve" being saved or, more typically, because we want the "boasting" of being such a "good christian". We do it because we ARE saved, not because we are trying to earn it or whatever.
Showing off our "list of accomplishments" is so much more impressive than saying that we are saved because we believe in Our Lord and all that HE DID and DOES for us.

Ever heard from someone," What? all you have to do is believe and voila, you are saved?"...."must be nice"...

That's why when I look at remarkable, exemplary, influential Christians down through history, what amazes me is how God picked a certain - and often, unlikely - person to work through. Moses and the prophets wouldn't have been particularly effective or remarkable without God working through them. Actually, much the opposite might have otherwise happened.