Evidence for God from Science

Were ALL of the original writings of the Bible's canon of Scripture God-inspired, as to what to put down, what to include? Or were only parts of it inspired, with the rest a blend of mere myths, fictions, and some even deliberate fabrications from the imaginations of man? Men are failable mortals, after all - how could they have written and included precisely the gist or specifics of what God wanted them to - and DID they?

Here, Dr. Norman Geisler, one of the world's greatest-living theologians and Bible scholars defends Genesis and the entirety of the Bible canon as being inspired by God, true, historical, and, yes, INERRANT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMdC8GxHu6A (Note, Geisler begins at about the 7:15 minute mark, after the intro and setup)

Define inspired and inerrant.

I would go with the definition of the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy, which only applies to the originals autographs - of which scholarship and textual criticism shows we can discern with great certainty - with only a few inconsequential passages, none doctrinal in nature, in serious question. It does not refer to a literalism only approach, and recognizes that Scripture contains literalisms, metaphor, allegory, poetry, historical accounts - a range of literary styles and functions. It also does not refer to copyist errors like wrong word placement, spelling errors, etc. - as by comparing the many thousands of manuscript copies over time and place, we can see where the originals correlate. And lastly, much of Scripture is not a word-for-word translation of what was originally spoken, but is an accurate GIST of it - for instance, Jesus' sermons were much longer than what is recorded - but the basic meaning is accurately conveyed. And the rhetorical style used was easy to memorize over years of repetition by Believers - which is how the accounts were written after the fact. Not to mention, the Holy Spirit brought to mind and memory of the witnesses and those recording events. There is a range of how inspiration worked - but what is included was all inspired by God.

Here's the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy: http://www.danielakin.com/wp-content/up ... c%2023.pdf

Here's the list of the signers of the statement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_S ... _Inerrancy

A God that can create a universe most certainly has the ability to control what He wants to be considered as His Words and conveyances to man. Jesus confirmed the entire OT canon, bracketing all of the writings of the Prophets and The Law. And the New Testament tells us that Jesus viewed OT Scripture so important that He said it all points to Him and that He came to DIE to fulfill it!

Recently there has been a push of 'limited inspiration' happening within the church. Many of you all may know of Wendy and Don Francisco Christian musicians? Can't speak for Don, however, his wife Wendy is very vocal on this topic so I will address her views.

Basically put, she suggest that legalistic control freaks added to the bible any and all concepts of eternal punishment ie Hell. Even Jesus' own words on hell and the lake of fire were added much later and are simply not there in the original text, hence the bible has limited inspiration . According to her own words in brief, all people are saved, all are going to heaven, God hates the lie about hell, God never punishes anyone, heaven is on earth now-we make it and all must work to make it so, Jesus would marry homosexuals,God is all love, all people must be loving and tolerant (except when toward you if you disagree with her POV you will find out that even her concept of love is very limited).

Kind of shocking to know that the man how wrote 'He's Alive' way back when launching out into universalism and limited inspiration of the bible. And is wife too is now so Hyper grace that goes way beyond what hyper grace people accept.

To be fair, this is due for a variety of reasons. From being controlled by the debunked shepherding discipleship movement early in their music career. Seeing the hypocrisy of pastors and christian leaders up close and person, exploited by the music industry,loss of loved ones and people unkind words concerning that, and the influence of Rob Bell like doctrines. Plus other things - I would suggest, not being hostile to them, but rather be kind and gentle. They have a habit of axing anyone they disagree with especially quoting bible passages that prove they are in error no matter how tactful the person is.

I would post the links but you can search this out - look up 'Wendy Francisco' on Face Book and her 'Love Heretic' page on FB look of Don's FB page as well - there is enough they wrote on this to numerous to quote.

Have compassion on them and simply pray for them. They mean well and been so wounded in life by what they been through that only Jesus can mend and heal and free them from the error they are descending into. Maybe someone they respect personally can reach them and pray for that. There is a stricter judgment that comes to those in any Christian leadership or public spotlight and pray mercy on them, not hate.

I have seen this attitude 'Wendy' has well in churches as of late where the bible is only limited-ly Inspired...

Cults start out that way.
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PS Let us not forget in the last days - there will be a great falling away that comes first...

I think there are degrees of inspiration in the bible.
We see this when God actively talks though His messengers ( "the Lord says...), when divine revelation is given, eveytime Jesus says anything, as opposed to when an apostle speaks of his own authority ( As Paul says, Not the Lord But I...) or when Poems are written or when the writer uses analogies or parables etc.
I think ALL of the books and letters and poems and songs of the Bible are inspired by the HS, I just think that there are degrees of inspiration and I do NOT believe that the writers became "puppets" or were not in control of their actions when inspired by the HS.

Paul: I think ALL of the books and letters and poems and songs of the Bible are inspired by the HS, I just think that there are degrees of inspiration and I do NOT believe that the writers became "puppets" or were not in control of their actions when inspired by the HS.

No, no puppetry required. God used people as they are, using their own words to describe what God wanted them to reveal. And I'm certain that some of what they reveal, they themselves did not fully understand all of the meanings - particularly trued of various prophecies. Some of Scripture has the most amazing classical language - and some does not. But as for WHAT was to be included in the canon of Scripture and WHAT was recorded, WHATEVER thoughts or instructions of God were to be captured - this was ALL a divine work of God. But that doesn't mean that every word was dictated or that the authors' personalities and sensibilities weren't given freedom in the writing. But to think that God didn't control every important aspect of the process, miraculously protect it, have so many copies from around the world to compare - this is very foolish.

Because if God didn't control the processes behind the canon of Scripture, and as He wanted it to all turn out, then this would contradict God's stated character, power, and the immense importance He placed upon the truth He desires to convey to us. If ANY of it is fiction or myth-making per the imaginations of men, then that brings the entire work into question as being part of a process in which God controlled (and had the ABILITY and DESIRE to) - making it unreliable that we could ever discern what parts were true and what parts were merely man-made and thus irrelevant. And thus God would have put us in a terrible position concerning trusting His word - or even knowing which parts we could trust. And if we did THAT, then WE would become the ultimate determiner of what would otherwise be God's truth and all that He wanted included. As God considers Scripture unchangeable and true, as He came to die to fulfill it - this idea that it is a blend of truth, myth and outright, deliberate fabrications is irreconcilable with God's Holy Character, values, and power over all things.

So, to me, one who considers the canon of Scripture a blend of truth, myth and fiction - this tells me a lot about how much they trust Him, and how they view God's attributes, abilities, love, power, and Holy character. A god behind an untrustworthy "bible" either doesn't care what his word is mingled with, or he can't control it - and so what love would that show?

So, to me, one who considers the canon of Scripture a blend of truth, myth and fiction - this tells me a lot about how much they trust Him, and how they view God's attributes, abilities, love, power, and Holy character. A god behind an untrustworthy "bible" either doesn't care what his word is mingled with, or he can't control it - and so what love would that show?

I think this is your own criteria for how you view, God's attributes, abilities, love, power, and Holy character. A God bound to a book. In that respect, you are doing the same a lot of Muslims do. They bound God to the book and in fact give the same argument.

Philip wrote: ↑Sun May 06, 2018 12:50 pm Were ALL of the original writings of the Bible's canon of Scripture God-inspired, as to what to put down, what to include? Or were only parts of it inspired, with the rest a blend of mere myths, fictions, and some even deliberate fabrications from the imaginations of man? Men are failable mortals, after all - how could they have written and included precisely the gist or specifics of what God wanted them to - and DID they?

Here, Dr. Norman Geisler, one of the world's greatest-living theologians and Bible scholars defends Genesis and the entirety of the Bible canon as being inspired by God, true, historical, and, yes, INERRANT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMdC8GxHu6A (Note, Geisler begins at about the 7:15 minute mark, after the intro and setup)

I think that no one can deny the prophets ( we are the generation that sees most of them being fulfilled) they are fulfilled word to word . as God used the prophets he used the scribes therefore. Inspired.

Neo: I think this is your own criteria for how you view, God's attributes, abilities, love, power, and Holy character. A God bound to a book.

Bound to a book???!!! Neo, how do you know ANYTHING about Jesus that matters? How do you know about His prophecied arrival? How do you know of His Resurrection? How do you know that He died for you? How do you know that faith in Him is necessary for salvation and eternal life? No, you would know nothing of those if they weren't tied to books in the Bible, WOULD you??? So, you're telling me that you don't believe God's attributes abundantly described across Scripture? Because if you don't, mostly what you believe is only what YOU want to - not based upon anything but Neo's cherrypicked beliefs. And this means that you can't know anything with certainty. I've been here many years and have never once seen you give a credible description of why you believe you need to be forgiven of sin, or for that matter, anything that Scripture even says. And you certainly know that if we can't know what is what, or if various parts of Scripture are false, that we can't know which parts are true, partly true, or outright fictions. You might as well throw you Bible out and write the "Scriptures of Neo!"

Neo: In that respect, you are doing the same a lot of Muslims do. They bound God to the book and in fact give the same argument.

Astonishingly! Are you seriously going to make the argument that involves comparing a demonically inspired, hate-filled pagan book of lies and a false deity and prophet to Holy Scripture???!!! This is incredibly sad! Apparently, you don't even realize what God's Word is for! And you surely must realize that if God allowed His words to be prolifically blended with distortions, fiction and lies that God, as described by all of His prophets, apostles, and Jesus across the canon of Scripture, cannot exist! And if they made THOSE things up, you have no reason to believe you need salvation or that the Bible even matters. Jesus confirmed the entirety of the OT - yet you call much of it into doubt. Your Bible is mostly worthless to you! And given how you cherrypick whether parts of it are true or not, you can't possible have faith that what you DO believe to be truth, actually is!

I'll keep having faith in God's Word and you can keep your faith in the cherrypicked "Book of Neo!"

Inerrancy can't be proven, but requires faith, but not the blind kind. Inspiration is something much less, I'd be surprised to find any Christian denying it. Such is like cutting of the branch of Christianity altogther, to make it into whatever one desires.

As I see matters, prophecies in Scripture are like the divine seal. The historical background of divine entwined with history of a nation, real names of places, real names of people, even down to the detail of the direction of wind, is a hallmark that sets the Tanakh in particular apart from any other text.

Philip wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 7:24 am

Neo: I think this is your own criteria for how you view, God's attributes, abilities, love, power, and Holy character. A God bound to a book.

Bound to a book???!!! Neo, how do you know ANYTHING about Jesus that matters? How do you know about His prophecied arrival? How do you know of His Resurrection? How do you know that He died for you? How do you know that faith in Him is necessary for salvation and eternal life? No, you would know nothing of those if they weren't tied to books in the Bible, WOULD you??? So, you're telling me that you don't believe God's attributes abundantly described across Scripture? Because if you don't, mostly what you believe is only what YOU want to - not based upon anything but Neo's cherrypicked beliefs. And this means that you can't know anything with certainty. I've been here many years and have never once seen you give a credible description of why you believe you need to be forgiven of sin, or for that matter, anything that Scripture even says. And you certainly know that if we can't know what is what, or if various parts of Scripture are false, that we can't know which parts are true, partly true, or outright fictions. You might as well throw you Bible out and write the "Scriptures of Neo!"

Neo: In that respect, you are doing the same a lot of Muslims do. They bound God to the book and in fact give the same argument.

Astonishingly! Are you seriously going to make the argument that involves comparing a demonically inspired, hate-filled pagan book of lies and a false deity and prophet to Holy Scripture???!!! This is incredibly sad! Apparently, you don't even realize what God's Word is for! And you surely must realize that if God allowed His words to be prolifically blended with distortions, fiction and lies that God, as described by all of His prophets, apostles, and Jesus across the canon of Scripture, cannot exist! And if they made THOSE things up, you have no reason to believe you need salvation or that the Bible even matters. Jesus confirmed the entirety of the OT - yet you call much of it into doubt. Your Bible is mostly worthless to you! And given how you cherrypick whether parts of it are true or not, you can't possible have faith that what you DO believe to be truth, actually is!

I'll keep having faith in God's Word and you can keep your faith in the cherrypicked "Book of Neo!"

Lol Phil, I get the emotional outburst but all of this is a straw man. I have clarified these things repeatedly in the past but maybe you missed it or didn't pay attention to it.

And I am not comparing scriptures but your argument which is basically the same.

Some thoughts that I have been mulling over for a few years now.

In my theological tradition there is a lot of importance placed on the accuracy and inspiration of the "original autograph".
Sometimes I wonder to myself "so what?", we no longer have the original autographs so what is the practical relevance of the authority and accuracy of something that is no longer available to us?

The communication path of God to us has a number of steps... at a high level the steps are:
1. God inspired the human author of Scripture.
2. The human author created the original autograph.
3. The original autograph was then copied, edited, and translated.
4. Today, the Holy Spirit is available to guide the reader in understanding the Scriptures that are available to him.
So why is the creation of the original autograph where we draw the line regarding inspiration and authority?
Why not either further upstream or even downstream in the communication process?

Which brings me to the use of the OT Scriptures by Jesus and the Apostles.
At the time of Jesus, the original autographs of the OT Scriptures no longer existed. And like today, there were multiple versions of the OT Scriptures which were used by 1st century Judaism. Two significant versions of the OT Scriptures at that time were the Hebrew text and the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT Scriptures).

Here's what intrigues me.
Even though the original autographs of the OT Scriptures were not available to Jesus and the Apostles.
And even though there are textual and translational differences between the Hebrew text and the Greek Septuagint translation, Jesus and his Apostles treated both the Hebrew text and the Greek Septuagint as inspired and authoritative.

Which gets me back to the point of these musings. If Jesus and his Apostles considered both the Hebrew OT text and the Septuagint to be inspired and authoritative, then why limit the inspiration and authority of Scripture to nonexistent "original autographs"?

Just some thoughts...

Have you noticed how the disciples pre-Holy Spirit seemed, shall we say, a little clueless.
When the Holy Spirit arrived they all of a sudden seemed infused with knowledge.

So, yes, I believe the NT is Holy Spirit inspired and the OT inspired by God as well.

neo-x wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 1:16 am

So, to me, one who considers the canon of Scripture a blend of truth, myth and fiction - this tells me a lot about how much they trust Him, and how they view God's attributes, abilities, love, power, and Holy character. A god behind an untrustworthy "bible" either doesn't care what his word is mingled with, or he can't control it - and so what love would that show?

I think this is your own criteria for how you view, God's attributes, abilities, love, power, and Holy character. A God bound to a book. In that respect, you are doing the same a lot of Muslims do. They bound God to the book and in fact give the same argument.

Are you guys misinterpreting each other? What I think Phil is trying to say is that 'A large part of humanity merely views the bible as a 'blend of truth, myth and fiction' and they can, of course, use it to manipulate people for their own diabolical purposes and agendas. So there is not much love among these people. For these types of un-graced or ignorant or nasty pasties, etc,. it is in fact, just a 'God bound by a book' and nothing more. For true Christians however, it's a totally different ball game.

Am i understanding this right ?