Abortion - Irish have done it. Consequences ?

[LittleHamster]

Just in case you haven't heard. Ireland is allowing abortion. Abortion has been covered quite extensively in the "The Souls of Aborted Fetuses" thread here -> viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296


Here are some points I've summarized and been considering - some are not scriptural though - just from various sources. Some are included from the thread above - posted by most of us in this forum.

1. Ensoulement- is the moment at which a human being gains a soul. Some religions say that a soul is newly created within a developing child and others, especially in religions that believe in reincarnation, that the soul is pre-existing and added at a particular stage of development. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=120#p234074
2. There is an eternal soul (originating from a Holy Monad) which develops by 'acquiring' experiences from an incarnated human being.
3. There are many spirit souls (since there are an infinite number of Holy Monads) wanting to incarnate in this world.
4. It takes seven years to develop a good human-spirit soul connection.
5. Its the 'miracle of miracles' to conceive a child. To have a child is the greatest gift from God to man.
6. An embryo or fetus has no physical consciousness or self-awareness.
7. There is a large amount of energy expended in conceiving a child.
8. If no abortion takes place and the child is unwanted by the parents, it may grow to develop serious psychological problems later in life.
9. Abortion is likely to be classed as justifiable homicide rather than murder in the eyes of some civil laws.
10. Divine laws may be violated.
11. To have a child is one of God's commands (a command of the spiritual world).
12. A terminated embryo or foetus may continue to grow and develop in the afterlife but is denied worldly experiences.
13. There is only a physiological difference between a embryo and and 9 month old unborn foetus.
14. Spirit enters the child when it takes its first breath.
15. Woman's personality may permanently change for the worse after the termination of her pregnancy.
16. Women are sadly often just as much a victim as the baby. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=135#p234230
17. A scientific study classes conception as the point when a human becomes a person.
18. Abortion is murder viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=105#p234023
19. Exodus 21:22 Addresses what God says about the unborn viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=105#p234024
20. Biology tells us from conception there exists human life viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=90#p234003
21. Every person has their own compass to navigate. Fortunately or unfortunately we don’t get to chose when we think free will is a choice. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=90#p234004
22. Pros and Cons are subjective.This makes sense if you are an atheist/evolutionist because your worldview allows for it. As a Christian, it's simple, the Bible doesn't allow you to just kill your unborn baby. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=90#p234005
23. Yes we have freewill, BUT God also set us LIMITATIONS that we must abide by. Freewill but only so far. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=90#p234008
24. I maintain that its silly to call abortion murder. Just a lot of emotional hyperbole thrown around. I don't advocate abortion but I understand why it happens and sometimes there are plenty of justified reasons for it. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=90#p234008
25. It's necessary in conditions of extreme poverty, viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=90#p234013
26. Killing in war is different to killing in pregnancy viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=60#p233955, viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=60#p233956
27. A human being is a person... not a problem viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=60#p233960
28. The reason I said it's not murder is that it technically just isn't viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=60#p233960
29. Calling someone a murderer for having an abortion is silly. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=60#p233974
30. Jeremiah 1:5: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;" Isaiah 49:5: "And now the Lord says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant,"....viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=45#p233942
31. There is no justification, cause or valid reason to kill an unborn child. That right belongs to God, and Him alone.viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=45#p233943
32. Purgatory was one of the most brilliant money-making schemes in history! viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=30#p233906 - Nice one Phillip:-)


Now, as some Christians know, you reap what you sow. What is a person/country reaping when agreeing to termination of a pregnancy? Is it just another consequence of being 'under the curse of the law' ? Salvation is still a possibility. Is it then just part of the lessons we go through ? Should I even start this thread ?

[LittleHamster]

33. Almost everyone thinks Abortion is bad. No one wakes in the morning and says, "I'm having an abortion, how wonderful, I'll put a picture of it up on my wall !"

A couple of other things that bug me:

(i) Christians seem to have opposite opinions on abortion - i.e. is murder, is not murder.
(ii) I can't find much on the subject in any other religions or spiritual teachings.


Edit: Sorry, I don't want to start another debate. I'll investigate some more stuff and report back here.

[Kurieuo]

It isn't a Christian, religious issue. You're just wrong and barking up the wrong tree there with soul stuff etc. Most arguments are scientific and biological in nature. The only other premise needed is that human life is valuable and ought to be protected in virtue of being human life. Atheists generally accept such. Check out resources on secularprolife.org for example.

[Philip]

Scientific Arguments: http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/s ... rtion.html

Biblical-Based Arguments: http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/prolife.html

[LittleHamster]

Scientific Arguments: http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/s ... rtion.html

Biblical-Based Arguments: http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/prolife.html

Thanks. Good stuff. I'll steer away from science for the moment. I don't think it takes into account any of the stuff that goes on behind the scenes,i.e. - in the spiritual world nor does it regard any of what God's view or intentions might be.

For example, What constitutes a Human being ? I don't even think Saint Google could come up with an adequate scientific definition either:

34. Human Being Defn., a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.
or
35. Human Being Defn., Simply that a human is a member of the Human Species, which is crudely (and incompletely) defined as those who can produce fertile offspring when breeding with another member of the species.
or
36. Human Being Defn., A bunch of embryonic cells which are rapidly forming into a human, etc...

[LittleHamster]

It isn't a Christian, religious issue. You're just wrong and barking up the wrong tree there with soul stuff etc. Most arguments are scientific and biological in nature. The only other premise needed is that human life is valuable and ought to be protected in virtue of being human life. Atheists generally accept such. Check out resources on secularprolife.org for example.

Sorry, missed your post. Yes, most arguments are of a scientific/biological nature. There are other, non-scientific issues I want answers for too. If science says "No problemo Kurieuo, abort to your hearts content !" and then three days later you get hit by lightning and vaporized, I wanna know why such a consequence has befallen you . I will check out secularprolife.org for sure. Gotta do the house chores now

[Kurieuo]

It isn't a Christian, religious issue. You're just wrong and barking up the wrong tree there with soul stuff etc. Most arguments are scientific and biological in nature. The only other premise needed is that human life is valuable and ought to be protected in virtue of being human life. Atheists generally accept such. Check out resources on secularprolife.org for example.

Sorry, missed your post. Yes, most arguments are of a scientific/biological nature. There are other, non-scientific issues I want answers for too. If science says "No problemo Kurieuo, abort to your hearts content !" and then three days later you get hit by lightning and vaporized, I wanna know why such a consequence has befallen you .

Don't understand the lightning part, but, science of when human life begins is actually on the pro-life side (hence the issue is framed as pro-[human]life by such). A new and distinct individual human life begins at conception, biology textbooks tell me so.

[Blessed]

Deuteronomy 28: 15-67. Those are the consequences my man. Read them and weep. Ireland didn't vote on abortion. They voted on their own destruction. I have already seen how this agenda plays out and how it relates to feminism, LGBT agenda, police state, religious discrimination dressed up as equality, Unconstitutional laws, and every so called liberal (an oxymoron word) agenda. I.E. everyone reading this over 30 years old living in the USA with a MEMORY has seen this show before. We know how it's going to go. Over the next decades - Ireland's birthrate will plummet, STD's will increase, and ethnic Irish will be replaced by foreigners (see Deuteronomy 28: 43-45). You can call those scriptures politically incorrect but they are God's law.

Back to abortion. The only scripture I'm aware of related to abortion is in Exodus 21. If there are more which directly reference abortion - someone please correct me.

I think abortion is a form of murder. But only past a certain point.

1) Soul infuses in flesh
2) Fetus becomes Sentient - in any form

Does anyone have any proof or time tables they can provide for these 2 things I've listed? Any laboratory test? When does the SOUL infuse into the zygote? When does the soul then interact with the fetus thus making the fetus sentient?

[Blessed]

Does anyone here believe abortion should be allowed when the baby will be born defective / retarded or when the mothers life is at serious risk OR when the conception is a result of rape?

If I was "king" in an imaginary world I would make abortion an illegal eye for an eye crime. However I would write exceptions into the law such as:

1) Baby defective / mutant / diseased / retarded gets the vacuum cleaner

[Blessed]

A new and distinct individual human life begins at conception, biology textbooks tell me so.

Define distinct and individual. Define life.

[neo-x]

When all is said and done, I think it is good for women to have the right to abort. In my previous convo's, some here think abortion is straight up murder. However, I think it is only such when the baby is not dependant on the mother biologically or has come to term.

As for the spiritual argument, the soul or spirit can never die, so even if you "murder" the babies, it is understandable. At least I have heard similar logic employed by those who justify Israel's wiping off other nations in taking over Canaan, including their women and children.

[Blessed]

When all is said and done, I think it is good for women to have the right to abort. In my previous convo's, some here think abortion is straight up murder. However, I think it is only such when the baby is not dependant on the mother biologically or has come to term.

As for the spiritual argument, the soul or spirit can never die, so even if you "murder" the babies, it is understandable. At least I have heard similar logic employed by those who justify Israel's wiping off other nations in taking over Canaan, including their women and children.

What you think doesn't matter pal. Only God's law matters. And science - if God's law is grey.

Your statement which reads to me as "Duuuuhhhhh uhhhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhh the spirit can never die so uuuuhhhhhh dduuuuuhhh even if you murder babies it's understandable uuhhhhh uhhhhhhh uhhhhhh". I am giving this stupid statement the benefit of the doubt and guessing you're thinking if a baby dies it's soul automatically returns to the Lord - and you would be correct. But that doesn't make it understandable.

The fact of the matter is the soul must enter the flesh and interact to be biologically sentient. Once there is proof or evidence of a biologically sentient fetus it is MURDER bottom of the line. Now if there is a laboratory test that proves the fetus is just a clump of dividing cells and is not biologically sentient then in the absence of a direct scripture I might consider it.

But this idea of a women being allowed to do whatever she wants with her body when it's NOT her body inside her is a lie.

[neo-x]

When all is said and done, I think it is good for women to have the right to abort. In my previous convo's, some here think abortion is straight up murder. However, I think it is only such when the baby is not dependant on the mother biologically or has come to term.

As for the spiritual argument, the soul or spirit can never die, so even if you "murder" the babies, it is understandable. At least I have heard similar logic employed by those who justify Israel's wiping off other nations in taking over Canaan, including their women and children.

What you think doesn't matter pal. Only God's law matters. And science - if God's law is grey.

Your statement which reads to me as "Duuuuhhhhh uhhhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhh the spirit can never die so uuuuhhhhhh dduuuuuhhh even if you murder babies it's understandable uuhhhhh uhhhhhhh uhhhhhh". I am giving this stupid statement the benefit of the doubt and guessing you're thinking if a baby dies it's soul automatically returns to the Lord - and you would be correct. But that doesn't make it understandable.

The fact of the matter is the soul must enter the flesh and interact to be biologically sentient. Once there is proof or evidence of a biologically sentient fetus it is MURDER bottom of the line. Now if there is a laboratory test that proves the fetus is just a clump of dividing cells and is not biologically sentient then in the absence of a direct scripture....

Yeah, I agree this is a stupid argument, but most Christians readily make it in defence of Isreal's wiping out other nations when it comes to murdering the enemy's kids.

I am not an authority on soul infusion, nor are you, so let just stick to things we do know. Life is parasitic in nature, it is dependant on the mother. Once it becomes biologically independent of her then yes I would call it killing. Murder needs malice, I don't think people have that when they are aborting. Not once have I ever witnessed that.

[Kurieuo]

PS. Hamster notice blessings response. It is "soul" logic or a similar metaphysical proparty that must be invoked in order to claim that a conceived human life while biologically isn't actually what we'd call "human". It is therefore ironic that the debate is often framed the other way around.

[Blessed]

What is "biologically independent"? A newborn baby? A 2 year old kid holding mummies hand and sucking his thumb? Or the 30 year old losecyr living in his Mom's basement that was on the news in the USA recently?

If you mean when can the baby survive outside the womb that would put it right around 8-9 months. Which makes abortion not murder if we define it as "biological independence. Mans law. Not Gods.

All human beings have a soul. Well, most anyways. And that soul is evident in a baby's eyes or an 90 year old mans eyes. If you have good vision. At some point the soul is transferred, formed, created, knit together in the flesh. Then at some point the soul becomes one with that flesh, a fetus, and is a genetically unique biologically sentient life form.

That is a better definition. Now when the souls creation or infusion occurs is out side of my knowledge. However sentient can be lab tested to a point.


In any case people don't think details. They only think black and white. That's why there is "Pro-Life" and "Pro Choice". One extreme vs. the other. I now lean towards the Pro-Life side but not to the point where I'm willing to say that if an abortion is performed a few minutes after a Zygote is formed = murder because there is no proof of soul infusion in the Zygote and there is no lab test for sentientcy.