The Olivet Discourse

[DBowling]

The Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) is Jesus most extensive teaching regarding the End Times.

A number of years ago I discarded my dogmatic pre-trib pre-mil dispensationalist position as unScriptural, and became a devout pan-millennialist... "it will all pan out in the end".

I have long believed that a proper understanding of Jesus' Olivet Discourse was the key to a Scriptural eschatology. Kenneth Gentry has had a significant impact on my understanding of the nature and timing of the "Great Tribulation" as described in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, although I do disagree with him on some other aspects of his interpretation.

I worked on documenting some of my thoughts on the Olivet Discourse over this Christmas break, so I figured I'd share those thoughts with my brothers and sisters here.

One of the keys for my understanding of the Olivet Discourse involves tracking Jesus' use of the phrase "these things" and "all these things" throughout his discourse.

I believe Jesus discusses four specific time frames in the Olivet Discourse.
1. 33 AD - 66 AD: The ministry and persecution of his disciples that takes place prior to the Great Tribulation
2. 66 AD - 70 AD: The Great Tribulation. I believe Jesus' use of the phrase "these things" and "all these things" refers specifically to the Great Tribulation and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Jesus explicitly states that "these things" would occur within the timeframe of his contemporary generation.
3. "The Times of the Gentiles" - I believe this term spans the period of time between the Great Tribulation and the future return of Christ on the clouds.
4. The Coming of the Son of Man - Unlike the Great Tribulation which would be accompanied by signs and happen during Jesus' contemporary generation, the timing of the coming of the Son of Man was unknown and would not happen for a "long time".

I've copy/pasted some of my notes below

A. Jesus Prophesies the Destruction of the Temple
Mark 13:1-2
Matthew 24:1-2
Luke 21:5-6
1. Jesus associates the phrase “these things” (Luk 21:6) and “all these things” (Mat 24:2) with his prophecy regarding the destruction of the Temple.

B. The Disciples’ Questions
Mark 13:3-4
Matthew 24:3
Luke 21:7
1. The disciples ask:
a. When will “these things” be?
b. What will be the sign when “all these things” are going to be fulfilled?
2. The disciples associate the destruction of the Temple (ie “these things”) with the coming of Jesus and the end of the age (Mat 24:3).

C. The Beginning of Birth Pangs
Mark 13:5-8
Matthew 24:4-8
Luke 21:8-11
1. Jesus associates “wars and rumors of wars”, famines, earthquakes, and great signs from the heavens with “these things”
2. Jesus tells the disciples that “these things” must take place first, but “the end” will not follow immediately.
3. Jesus tells the disciples that “all these things” are the beginning of birth pangs.

D. Before All “These Things” – AD 33-66 (Luke 21:12)
Mark 13:9-13
Matthew 24:9-14
Luke 21:12-19
1. Before “all these things” the disciples will be persecuted, and they will stand before governors and kings for Jesus sake.
2. The gospel must first be preached to all the nations, and then “the end” will come.

E. “These Things” – The Great Tribulation (AD 66-70)
Mark 13:14-23
Matthew 24:15-28
Luke 21:20-24a
1. Luke 21:20 equates the “Abomination of Desolation” with Jerusalem surrounded with armies.
2. According to Jesus “those days” will be a “great tribulation”, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
3. During the Great Tribulation, if anyone says, ‘Here is the Christ’ do not believe him.
4. Jesus says that the coming of the Son of Man will be like lightening flashing from the east to the west.

F. The Times of the Gentiles
Mark 13:24-25
Matthew 24:29
Luke 21:24b-26
1. Immediately after the Tribulation of “those days”, the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
2. Luke 21:24 associates the powers of the heavens being shaken with “the times of the Gentiles”.

G. The Coming of the Son of Man
Mark 13:26-27
Matthew 24:30-31
Luke 21:27
1. The coming of the Son of Man occurs after the Times of the Gentiles which takes place after the Great Tribulation of Those Days (ie after “all these things”)

H. This Generation Will Not Pass Away Until “All These Things” Take Place
Mark 13:28-34
Matthew 24:32-34
Luke 21:28-33
1. When you see “all these things” happening recognize that the kingdom of God (it) is near.
2. This generation will not pass away until “all these things” take place.
3. “All these things” relates to the events surrounding the destruction of the Temple (Mat 24:2) and the Great Tribulation.

I. That Day
Mark 13:32-36
Matthew 24:36-51
Luke 21:34-36
1. “That Day” = “The coming of the Son of Man” (Mat 24:36-37)
“Those Days” = The Great Tribulation (Mark 13:19)
2. The timing of “That Day” vs “These Things”
a. Known vs Unknown
- Recognizable signs are associated with “these things”
- The Son of Man is coming (ie “that day”) at an hour when you do not think He will (Mat 24:44).
- No one knows when “that day” will take place, not even the Son. (Mat 24:36)
b. Soon vs A Long Time
- This generation will not pass away until “all these things” take place (Mat 24:34).
- “That day” is not coming for a “long time” (Mat 24:48)

[abelcainsbrother]

The Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) is Jesus most extensive teaching regarding the End Times.

A number of years ago I discarded my dogmatic pre-trib pre-mil dispensationalist position as unScriptural, and became a devout pan-millennialist... "it will all pan out in the end".

I have long believed that a proper understanding of Jesus' Olivet Discourse was the key to a Scriptural eschatology. Kenneth Gentry has had a significant impact on my understanding of the nature and timing of the "Great Tribulation" as described in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, although I do disagree with him on some other aspects of his interpretation.

I worked on documenting some of my thoughts on the Olivet Discourse over this Christmas break, so I figured I'd share those thoughts with my brothers and sisters here.

One of the keys for my understanding of the Olivet Discourse involves tracking Jesus' use of the phrase "these things" and "all these things" throughout his discourse.

I believe Jesus discusses four specific time frames in the Olivet Discourse.
1. 33 AD - 66 AD: The ministry and persecution of his disciples that takes place prior to the Great Tribulation
2. 66 AD - 70 AD: The Great Tribulation. I believe Jesus' use of the phrase "these things" and "all these things" refers specifically to the Great Tribulation and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Jesus explicitly states that "these things" would occur within the timeframe of his contemporary generation.
3. "The Times of the Gentiles" - I believe this term spans the period of time between the Great Tribulation and the future return of Christ on the clouds.
4. The Coming of the Son of Man - Unlike the Great Tribulation which would be accompanied by signs and happen during Jesus' contemporary generation, the timing of the coming of the Son of Man was unknown and would not happen for a "long time".

I've copy/pasted some of my notes below

A. Jesus Prophesies the Destruction of the Temple
Mark 13:1-2
Matthew 24:1-2
Luke 21:5-6
1. Jesus associates the phrase “these things” (Luk 21:6) and “all these things” (Mat 24:2) with his prophecy regarding the destruction of the Temple.

B. The Disciples’ Questions
Mark 13:3-4
Matthew 24:3
Luke 21:7
1. The disciples ask:
a. When will “these things” be?
b. What will be the sign when “all these things” are going to be fulfilled?
2. The disciples associate the destruction of the Temple (ie “these things”) with the coming of Jesus and the end of the age (Mat 24:3).

C. The Beginning of Birth Pangs
Mark 13:5-8
Matthew 24:4-8
Luke 21:8-11
1. Jesus associates “wars and rumors of wars”, famines, earthquakes, and great signs from the heavens with “these things”
2. Jesus tells the disciples that “these things” must take place first, but “the end” will not follow immediately.
3. Jesus tells the disciples that “all these things” are the beginning of birth pangs.

D. Before All “These Things” – AD 33-66 (Luke 21:12)
Mark 13:9-13
Matthew 24:9-14
Luke 21:12-19
1. Before “all these things” the disciples will be persecuted, and they will stand before governors and kings for Jesus sake.
2. The gospel must first be preached to all the nations, and then “the end” will come.

E. “These Things” – The Great Tribulation (AD 66-70)
Mark 13:14-23
Matthew 24:15-28
Luke 21:20-24a
1. Luke 21:20 equates the “Abomination of Desolation” with Jerusalem surrounded with armies.
2. According to Jesus “those days” will be a “great tribulation”, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
3. During the Great Tribulation, if anyone says, ‘Here is the Christ’ do not believe him.
4. Jesus says that the coming of the Son of Man will be like lightening flashing from the east to the west.

F. The Times of the Gentiles
Mark 13:24-25
Matthew 24:29
Luke 21:24b-26
1. Immediately after the Tribulation of “those days”, the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
2. Luke 21:24 associates the powers of the heavens being shaken with “the times of the Gentiles”.

G. The Coming of the Son of Man
Mark 13:26-27
Matthew 24:30-31
Luke 21:27
1. The coming of the Son of Man occurs after the Times of the Gentiles which takes place after the Great Tribulation of Those Days (ie after “all these things”)

H. This Generation Will Not Pass Away Until “All These Things” Take Place
Mark 13:28-34
Matthew 24:32-34
Luke 21:28-33
1. When you see “all these things” happening recognize that the kingdom of God (it) is near.
2. This generation will not pass away until “all these things” take place.
3. “All these things” relates to the events surrounding the destruction of the Temple (Mat 24:2) and the Great Tribulation.

I. That Day
Mark 13:32-36
Matthew 24:36-51
Luke 21:34-36
1. “That Day” = “The coming of the Son of Man” (Mat 24:36-37)
“Those Days” = The Great Tribulation (Mark 13:19)
2. The timing of “That Day” vs “These Things”
a. Known vs Unknown
- Recognizable signs are associated with “these things”
- The Son of Man is coming (ie “that day”) at an hour when you do not think He will (Mat 24:44).
- No one knows when “that day” will take place, not even the Son. (Mat 24:36)
b. Soon vs A Long Time
- This generation will not pass away until “all these things” take place (Mat 24:34).
- “That day” is not coming for a “long time” (Mat 24:48)

So you no longer believe the mark of the beast in the end times is part of the great tribulation prior to Christ's return and that there are really no prophecies or signs for us to look for to know approximately when the tribulation is here,the mark of the beast and when the coming of Christ will be? If so? It seems to me that you're focusing on just one part of the bible concerning the end-times while ignoring what prophets like Daniel and John in the Book of Revelation describe,as well as the many other prophets too. I understand that there are many different interpretations out there concernng the mark of the beast,tribulation,coming of Christ,whether there is a rapture or not,but despite the many differences there are still too many other prophecies concerning the end times and future events to ignore and cast away. It seems to me you're giving up on end-times bible prophecy and so you want to remove prophecies that are to be fulfilled just as many other prophecies were fulfilled to imply that we don't have any future prophecies to look for being fulfilled.If so? It is boring to me and makes the bible of none effect when it comes to prophecy and fulfilled prophecies and it removes evidence for us to point out to non-believers too.

[DBowling]

So you no longer believe the mark of the beast in the end times is part of the great tribulation prior to Christ's return and that there are really no prophecies or signs for us to look for to know approximately when the tribulation is here,the mark of the beast and when the coming of Christ will be?

Let me try to answer your questions one at a time...
1. Yes, I believe that the beast and the mark of the beast was part of the Great Tribulation.
See... The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.

http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs ... lation.pdf
2. Yes, I believe that the Great Tribulation of AD 66-70 took place prior to Christ's future return.
3. Yes, I believe that there were many signs that allowed people in AD 66-70 to know that the Great Tribulation was in fact taking place... as prophesied by Jesus, John, and even Daniel.
4. As I noted in my comments on the Olivet Discourse, Jesus gives specific signs and a time frame for the Great Tribulation. However Jesus says that his return would be sudden at some long time in the future, and no one knows when it would occur except the Father. So based on the explicit statements of Jesus I don't think we can know the timing (either precisely or approximately) of his return.

If so? It seems to me that you're focusing on just one part of the bible concerning the end-times while ignoring what prophets like Daniel and John in the Book of Revelation describe,as well as the many other prophets too.

Actually Daniel and Revelation contributed significantly to my realization that pre-trib pre-mil eschatology is contradicted by not only Jesus, but John and Daniel as well.
There is no amounted of tortured math that can get the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 to point to a 'Great Tribulation' that takes place 2000 years after the time of Christ. To do that, the margin of error in Daniel's prophecy has to exceed the complete duration of the 70 weeks itself.
In regards to Revelation, I believe John gives enough indicators in his prophecy to identify the Beast of Revelation with a fair level of confidence.
(see Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry).

So from my perspective the prophecies of Daniel and John are consistent with what Jesus teaches in the Olivet Discourse. And all three come into direct conflict with pre-trib pre mil eschatology.

It seems to me you're giving up on end-times bible prophecy and so you want to remove prophecies that are to be fulfilled just as many other prophecies were fulfilled to imply that we don't have any future prophecies to look for being fulfilled.

Based on what Jesus teaches, he could return at any time now. To me that's pretty exciting!
However Jesus says we don't know when he will return.
It could be tomorrow. It could be in another 2000 years. We just don't know.
That is why Jesus tells us to always remain ready for his return.

There is a lot of really exciting stuff still to come.
The return of Jesus.
The resurrection of the dead.
The final judgement.
The new heaven/new earth.

Just because Jesus tells us that we don't know when these things will happen, that doesn't somehow make them boring.

[Stu]

Well then you're gonna fall for the anti-christ's shtick hook, line and sinker...

[DBowling]

Well then you're gonna fall for the anti-christ's shtick hook, line and sinker...

A baseless assertion with absolutely no Scriptural support doesn't give me much to work with here, so let's start with what Scripture actually says about the Antichrist's shtick...

This is what the Apostle John says about who the Antichrist is and what the Antichrist's 'shtick' is...

1 John 2:18-24

18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

Please show me any post where I have done any of the following:
- Denied that that Jesus is the Christ
- Denied the Father
- Denied the Son

I think my many posts at this forum demonstrate that your false assertion above is an absurd lie.
- I have repeatedly confessed that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah)
- I have repeatedly confessed the Divinity and Lordship of the Father
- I have repeatedly confessed the Divinity and Lordship of the Son

[PaulSacramento]

It is clear, at least to me, that many of the writers of the epistles believed that the end of times would happen ( or was happening) in their lifetimes.

[Stu]

Well then you're gonna fall for the anti-christ's shtick hook, line and sinker...

A baseless assertion with absolutely no Scriptural support doesn't give me much to work with here, so let's start with what Scripture actually says about the Antichrist's shtick...

This is what the Apostle John says about who the Antichrist is and what the Antichrist's 'shtick' is...

1 John 2:18-24

18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

Please show me any post where I have done any of the following:
- Denied that that Jesus is the Christ
- Denied the Father
- Denied the Son

I think my many posts at this forum demonstrate that your false assertion above is an absurd lie.
- I have repeatedly confessed that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah)
- I have repeatedly confessed the Divinity and Lordship of the Father
- I have repeatedly confessed the Divinity and Lordship of the Son

He will be a little more subtle than that in the beginning, to suck in the Christians. He will say all the right things, he will do all the right things, he will bring peace. Then he will betray.

Just so that I understand you correctly, are you saying that THE Anti-christ has already been (not just any old anti-christ)?

[Stu]

It is clear, at least to me, that many of the writers of the epistles believed that the end of times would happen ( or was happening) in their lifetimes.

Wasn't that was before their receiving of the Holy Spirit. They asked Jesus many questions, and received the answers thereof, before the arrival of the Holy Spirit, then He gave them answers when Jesus was gone.

[DBowling]

He will be a little more subtle than that in the beginning, to suck in the Christians. He will say all the right things, he will do all the right things, he will bring peace. Then he will betray.

It would help any discussion if you would provide some Scriptural support for your assertions.
That way we could see if Scripture is really claiming what you assert it is claiming.

Just so that I understand you correctly, are you saying that THE Anti-christ has already been (not just any old anti-christ)?

Give me a specific Scripture that mentions "the Antichrist" and I will be happy to tell you if I believe that specific Scripture refers to the Apostolic age, The Great Tribulation of the Olivet Discourse, or the future.

I believe that the "Antichrist" that the Apostle John mentions in 1 John 2 and 1 John 4 was in the world at the time of the Apostle John.
1 John 4:2-3

2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

[Stu]

He will be a little more subtle than that in the beginning, to suck in the Christians. He will say all the right things, he will do all the right things, he will bring peace. Then he will betray.

It would help any discussion if you would provide some Scriptural support for your assertions.
That way we could see if Scripture is really claiming what you assert it is claiming.

Just so that I understand you correctly, are you saying that THE Anti-christ has already been (not just any old anti-christ)?

Give me a specific Scripture that mentions "the Antichrist" and I will be happy to tell you if I believe that specific Scripture refers to the Apostolic age, The Great Tribulation of the Olivet Discourse, or the future.

I believe that the "Antichrist" that the Apostle John mentions in 1 John 2 and 1 John 4 was in the world at the time of the Apostle John.
1 John 4:2-3

2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Are you saying that the mark of the beast has already been and passed and that a period of time has past wherein no man could buy or sell without it?

And that you would not go to heaven if you took the mark?

Also, is the person who is associated with the number of the beast, 666, already been and come?

[PaulSacramento]

It is clear, at least to me, that many of the writers of the epistles believed that the end of times would happen ( or was happening) in their lifetimes.

Wasn't that was before their receiving of the Holy Spirit. They asked Jesus many questions, and received the answers thereof, before the arrival of the Holy Spirit, then He gave them answers when Jesus was gone.

If we believe that they writers received the HS either by Jesus directly ( As per the Gospel of John) or at Pentecost as per ACTS or via divine revelation of the Resurrected Christ as happened to Paul, then the writers would have received it BEFORE they wrote.

[Stu]

It is clear, at least to me, that many of the writers of the epistles believed that the end of times would happen ( or was happening) in their lifetimes.

Wasn't that was before their receiving of the Holy Spirit. They asked Jesus many questions, and received the answers thereof, before the arrival of the Holy Spirit, then He gave them answers when Jesus was gone.

If we believe that they writers received the HS either by Jesus directly ( As per the Gospel of John) or at Pentecost as per ACTS or via divine revelation of the Resurrected Christ as happened to Paul, then the writers would have received it BEFORE they wrote.

John 16:7 says:
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[DBowling]

It is clear, at least to me, that many of the writers of the epistles believed that the end of times would happen ( or was happening) in their lifetimes.

It is clear that the Apostles taught that they were living in the "last days".
But the question becomes... the last days of what?

When Jesus established his New Covenant with Israel, he made the Old Covenant obsolete (Hebrews 8:7-13).

The "last Days" that the Apostles were living in were the last days of the Old Covenant era. And the last remnant of the Old Covenant era was destroyed when Rome destroyed the Temple in 70 AD and fulfilled Jesus' Olivet Discourse prophecy.

[PaulSacramento]

If they believed that, why not say it?

[DBowling]

I still don't see you referencing any Scriptures that mention the "Antichrist"

Are you saying that the mark of the beast has already been and passed and that a period of time has past wherein no man could buy or sell without it?

Yes...
See... The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.

http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs ... lation.pdf

And that you would not go to heaven if you took the mark?

Whether or not a person goes to heaven has nothing to do with any physical mark.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Also, is the person who is associated with the number of the beast, 666, already been and come?

Yes...
See Chapter 3 - The Number of the Beast
from The Beast of Revelation by Kenneth Gentry.