"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
The circular argument is amazing to see.Kurieuo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:21 pm I just noticed in the other thread re: reasons I'm an Atheist, that it was being said non-intelligence can't bring forth intelligence. Putting it that way, makes things feel a little unclear though, like it needs to be unpacked and explained "why not?"
The real issue I think to overcome though, is an information problem found in the natural order. If an intelligences didn't exist, then please explain why there is this information found in the natural world. How did it form? In our experience, we truly only know one source for information, and that is intelligent beings.
The linked-to discussion between Shapiro and Meyer covers much of what I was alluding to in my opening post -- as well as various common responses to the information problem and why they don't hold up.
Maybe you're being too logical for some? Oh, well, some will never let inconvenient facts get in the way of their determination to embrace non-theism!Kurieuo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:21 pm I just noticed in the other thread re: reasons I'm an Atheist, that it was being said non-intelligence can't bring forth intelligence. Putting it that way, makes things feel a little unclear though, like it needs to be unpacked and explained "why not?"
The real issue I think to overcome though, is an information problem found in the natural order. If an intelligences didn't exist, then please explain why there is this information found in the natural world. How did it form? In our experience, we truly only know one source for information, and that is intelligent beings.
The linked-to discussion between Shapiro and Meyer covers much of what I was alluding to in my opening post -- as well as various common responses to the information problem and why they don't hold up.
I don’t know how many times I will need to keep repeating this; but as I said before, I have never said everything was a part of the material world. Are thoughts, ideas, or beliefs a part of the material world? Of course not! Neither is intelligence. Intelligence is a label we attach to something that IS a part of the material world. Like thoughts, ideas, or beliefs; intelligence only exists in the context of things that do exist in the material world. Intelligence does not have an actual existence by itself.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:45 amThe circular argument is amazing to see.
Intelligence is, obviously, immaterial and as such, not part of the material world BUT a materialist can't accept that since ALL is part of th ematerial world.
No; intelligence is a label/description of something that is a part of the material world.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:45 amSo then, intelligence becomes a description of something, of what? well, intelligence !
LOL !
Really? So what are these material properties of intelligence?PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:45 amThe properties of intelligence must have existed materially, of course, yet, intelligence is not a material thing.
Ouch.
I'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materiallyPaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:37 am That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.
You stated that intelligence is a description of a material thing, yes?Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:46 amI'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materiallyPaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:37 am That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.
Yes! Intelligence is one of many descriptions.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:08 amYou stated that intelligence is a description of a material thing, yes?Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:46 amI'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materiallyPaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:37 am That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.
What MATERIAL thing is it describing?Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:21 amYes! Intelligence is one of many descriptions.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:08 amYou stated that intelligence is a description of a material thing, yes?Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:46 amI'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materiallyPaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:37 am That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.
People.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:58 amWhat MATERIAL thing is it describing?Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:21 amYes! Intelligence is one of many descriptions.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:08 amYou stated that intelligence is a description of a material thing, yes?Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:46 amI'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materiallyPaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:37 am That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.