Evidence for God from Science

Hello everyone,

In Rom 11:26 Paul says that “οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται”. This is the conclusion of Paul’s development because the Letter to the Romans is the last one he wrote. However, the problem with verse 26 is that πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ can be interpreted in multiple ways. It could be considered a later Interpolation. It could be that Paul meant that the true Israel is actually the church. It could also refer to only a representative part of the ethnic people of Israel. And finally it could refer to the ethnic people of Israel, the entire people of God either with or without faith in Christ.



What do you think Paul actually believed?

elysse77 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:59 am Hello everyone,

In Rom 11:26 Paul says that “οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται”. This is the conclusion of Paul’s development because the Letter to the Romans is the last one he wrote. However, the problem with verse 26 is that πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ can be interpreted in multiple ways. It could be considered a later Interpolation. It could be that Paul meant that the true Israel is actually the church. It could also refer to only a representative part of the ethnic people of Israel. And finally it could refer to the ethnic people of Israel, the entire people of God either with or without faith in Christ.

What do you think Paul actually believed?

I think Paul's tree metaphor in Romans 11 tells us what is going on.
Paul describes three groups of people in his metaphor.
1.'some' natural branches that are broken off from the tree (apostate Israel who reject the Jewish Messiah)
2. natural branches that are not broken off and are still part of the tree (the faithful remnant of Israel who put their faith in the Jewish Messiah)
3. wild branches that are grafted into the tree (Gentiles who put their faith in the Jewish Messiah)

I believe "all Israel" refers to every branch that is part of the tree of God's people, whether they are natural branches that are not broken off (faithful Israel) or wild branches that are grafted into Israel (Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ).

Galatians 3:26-29

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:38 am I think Paul's tree metaphor in Romans 11 tells us what is going on.
Paul describes three groups of people in his metaphor.
1.'some' natural branches that are broken off from the tree (apostate Israel who reject the Jewish Messiah)
2. natural branches that are not broken off and are still part of the tree (the faithful remnant of Israel who put their faith in the Jewish Messiah)
3. wild branches that are grafted into the tree (Gentiles who put their faith in the Jewish Messiah)

I inadvertently overlooked a very important fourth group in Romans 11.
4. broken off "natural" branches that are grafted back into Israel through faith in the Jewish Messiah.
(similar to but not identical to #2 above)

4. broken off "natural" branches that are grafted back into Israel through faith in the Jewish Messiah.
(similar to but not identical to #2 above)

That eventually reach to Christ per the tribulation?

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:43 am

4. broken off "natural" branches that are grafted back into Israel through faith in the Jewish Messiah.
(similar to but not identical to #2 above)

That eventually reach to Christ per the tribulation?

I would not limit it to "the tribulation"
I would slightly modify your statement to
"That eventually reach to Christ anytime prior to the return of Jesus."

Yes, because the tribulation clearly will have purpose, as there still will be saveable people before Christ's return. And I agree, many Jews will and have discovered Jesus prior to any apocalyptic events of tribulation - as well as will do so BECAUSE of them.

K's favorite scholar, Michael Heiser, has an excellent discussion of what Paul means in Romans 11:26 in this Youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNO2VZmBgCA

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:23 am Yes, because the tribulation clearly will have purpose, as there still will be saveable people before Christ's return. And I agree, many Jews will and have discovered Jesus prior to any apocalyptic events of tribulation - as well as will do so BECAUSE of them.

OK... I'll bite
I believe we have discussed some of this in another thread.

Based on the timing that Jesus and John give for the "Great Tribulation" of Jesus' Olivet Discourse and John's Apocalyptic vision (Mat 24:34, Rev 1:1-3), I believe that the re-grafting of broken off "natural branches" into the tree of Israel occurs during the time frame between "the Great Tribulation" and the return of Christ (ie "the times of the Gentiles" - Luke 21:24).

However, I do think there is a direct correlation between the three women of the book of Revelation and the branches of Paul's tree metaphor in Romans 11.
1. The Faithful Remnant of Israel - In Romans 11:5 Paul talks about a faithful remnant of Israel. This remnant of Israel who remains faithful to YHWH is represented in Paul's tree metaphor as 'natural branches' who are not broken off and remain part of the tree of God's covenant people. This remnant is faithful to YHWH and makes up the first followers of Jesus the Messiah in "Jerusalem, Judea, and Samaria"
I believe the woman described in Revelation 12 is the faithful remnant that Paul describes in Romans 11:5. YHWH incarnate comes into the world through the Woman (Rev 12:5) and God protects the Woman during the Great Tribulation (Rev 12:13-14).
2. Unfaithful Israel/the Great Prostitute - In Romans 11:17 'some' of the 'natural branches' have been broken off due to their rejection of YHWH incarnate. I believe that John explicitly defines the Great Prostitute as unfaithful Israel. In Rev 17:18, John Identifies the Prostitute as the "great city", and Rev 11:8 identifies "the great city" as where "their Lord was crucified".
In Revelation 17 we see the Great Prostitute (unfaithful Israel) committing adultery with the Beast (Rome) and persecuting "God's holy people". And then in Rev 17:16 the Beast (Rome) destroys the Great Prostitute (apostate Israel) as Jerusalem is sacked by Rome and the Temple is destroyed in 70 AD. (Luke 21:20).
All that to say this. I believe that the apocalyptic events of Great Tribulation were a judgment on adulterous apostate Israel for their rejection of YHWH incarnate, which is why Jesus wept over Jerusalem.
But while apostate Israel (the Great Prostitute) faced judgment during the Great Tribulation, the faithful remnant of Israel (The Woman of Rev 12) was protected during the Great Tribulation...
Which brings us to the third woman in Revelation.
3. The Bride/"All Israel" - I believe the Bride in Rev 19:7 corresponds directly to "All Israel" in Romans 11:26. The Bride is the Church of Jesus Christ (YHWH incarnate). In Romans 11 the Bride is represented by the tree of all God's people, whether they are natural branches (faithful Israel) who have put their faith in Jesus the Messiah or whether they are wild branches (Gentiles) who have been grafted into "Israel of God" (Gal 6:16) through faith in Jesus.

I remain unconvinced that there will not also be a parallel tribulation to come before Christ comes back.

elysse77 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:59 am Hello everyone,

In Rom 11:26 Paul says that “οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται”. This is the conclusion of Paul’s development because the Letter to the Romans is the last one he wrote. However, the problem with verse 26 is that πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ can be interpreted in multiple ways. It could be considered a later Interpolation. It could be that Paul meant that the true Israel is actually the church. It could also refer to only a representative part of the ethnic people of Israel. And finally it could refer to the ethnic people of Israel, the entire people of God either with or without faith in Christ.




What do you think Paul actually believed?

my issue has been solved!!!

elysse77 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:59 am Hello everyone,
In Rom 11:26 Paul says that “οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται”. This is the conclusion of Paul’s development because the Letter to the Romans is the last one he wrote. However, the problem with verse 26 is that πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ can be interpreted in multiple ways. It could be considered a later Interpolation. It could be that Paul meant that the true Israel is actually the church. It could also refer to only a representative part of the ethnic people of Israel. And finally it could refer to the ethnic people of Israel, the entire people of God either with or without faith in Christ.
What do you think Paul actually believed?

ohh. it very great.
I think Paul's tree metaphor in Romans 11 tells us what is going on.
Paul describes three groups of people in his metaphor.
1.'some' natural branches that are broken off from the tree (apostate Israel who reject the Jewish Messiah)
2. natural branches that are not broken off and are still part of the tree (the faithful remnant of Israel who put their faith in the Jewish Messiah)
3. wild branches that are grafted into the tree (Gentiles who put their faith in the Jewish Messiah)
I agree with your comments, it is really useful for users. Thank you!