Evidence for God from Science

Just started watching this video by Pastor Dean Odle where he is teaching on why Christians cannot take the mark of the beast or they will go to hell.





I was reading along to Revelation 14:9-12, which says the following:

Revelation 14:9-12
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Now I have understood the above to mean that if you take the mark of the beast, then you will go to hell. But what the above seems to indicate is that if you also "worship the beast and his image", that you will go to hell. Or am I reading it wrong and does it mean that you have to do both, as in "worship the beast and his image" and "receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand", only then will you go to hell. Or does it mean that if you do either one you go to hell.

Stu wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:06 am
I was reading along to Revelation 14:9-12, which says the following:

Revelation 14:9-12
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Now I have understood the above to mean that if you take the mark of the beast, then you will go to hell. But what the above seems to indicate is that if you also "worship the beast and his image", that you will go to hell. Or am I reading it wrong and does it mean that you have to do both, as in "worship the beast and his image" and "receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand", only then will you go to hell. Or does it mean that if you do either one you go to hell.

The "mark of the beast" in John's vision is symbolic spiritual imagery that indicates that a person "worships the beast and his image"
Just like those who worship the Lamb have the spiritual mark of the Lamb on their foreheads in John's vision.

In John's vision a mark on the forehead is a spiritual symbol that identifies allegiance.

So any person who follows and worships the beast by definition has the "mark of the beast" on their forehead.
And any person who follows and worships the Lamb by definition has the "mark of the Lamb" on their forehead.

Which means, as a follower of the Lamb, I (by definition) have the spiritual "mark of the Lamb" on my forehead, and I would assume that you also have the mark of the Lamb on your forehead.

We are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone!
... not by any work we can do or by any physical mark that is or is not placed on our bodies.

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:30 pm

Stu wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:06 am
I was reading along to Revelation 14:9-12, which says the following:

Revelation 14:9-12
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Now I have understood the above to mean that if you take the mark of the beast, then you will go to hell. But what the above seems to indicate is that if you also "worship the beast and his image", that you will go to hell. Or am I reading it wrong and does it mean that you have to do both, as in "worship the beast and his image" and "receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand", only then will you go to hell. Or does it mean that if you do either one you go to hell.

The "mark of the beast" in John's vision is symbolic spiritual imagery that indicates that a person "worships the beast and his image"
Just like those who worship the Lamb have the spiritual mark of the Lamb on their foreheads in John's vision.

In John's vision a mark on the forehead is a spiritual symbol that identifies allegiance.

So any person who follows and worships the beast by definition has the "mark of the beast" on their forehead.
And any person who follows and worships the Lamb by definition has the "mark of the Lamb" on their forehead.

Which means, as a follower of the Lamb, I (by definition) have the spiritual "mark of the Lamb" on my forehead, and I would assume that you also have the mark of the Lamb on your forehead.

We are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone!
... not by any work we can do or by any physical mark that is or is not placed on our bodies.

Then why does it say that we won't be able to buy or sell without the mark. That is not symbolic.

Um, you are treading on dangerous ground - it says pretty clearly: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

That is a salvation issue and if you do it you lose your salvation.

Stu wrote:
Then why does it say that we...

It doesn't say, "we".

It doesn't say that believers will take the mark.

RickD wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:18 am

Stu wrote:
Then why does it say that we...

It doesn't say, "we".

It doesn't say that believers will take the mark.

What?

It quite clearly says:

If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

If "any". That includes Christians.

Are you saying that no Christian at all will be deceived, or cave in to the pressure of not wanting to be killed for their faith in Christ?

You know that most of the apostles were martyred right? Think of all the pre-tribulation rapture Christians who think they will be raptured out and not have to go through the terror that is to come. I've heard people say that if God would let their daughters go through such an ordeal that they probably will renounce their faith.

Stu wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:14 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:30 pm

Stu wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:06 am
I was reading along to Revelation 14:9-12, which says the following:

Revelation 14:9-12
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Now I have understood the above to mean that if you take the mark of the beast, then you will go to hell. But what the above seems to indicate is that if you also "worship the beast and his image", that you will go to hell. Or am I reading it wrong and does it mean that you have to do both, as in "worship the beast and his image" and "receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand", only then will you go to hell. Or does it mean that if you do either one you go to hell.

The "mark of the beast" in John's vision is symbolic spiritual imagery that indicates that a person "worships the beast and his image"
Just like those who worship the Lamb have the spiritual mark of the Lamb on their foreheads in John's vision.

In John's vision a mark on the forehead is a spiritual symbol that identifies allegiance.

So any person who follows and worships the beast by definition has the "mark of the beast" on their forehead.
And any person who follows and worships the Lamb by definition has the "mark of the Lamb" on their forehead.

Which means, as a follower of the Lamb, I (by definition) have the spiritual "mark of the Lamb" on my forehead, and I would assume that you also have the mark of the Lamb on your forehead.

We are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone!
... not by any work we can do or by any physical mark that is or is not placed on our bodies.

Then why does it say that we won't be able to buy or sell without the mark. That is not symbolic.

If commerce in the marketplace involves acts of devotion to the Beast (such as offering incense to the divine emperor) then a follower of "the Lamb" would not be able to participate in normal commerce because they would refuse to participate in an act of worship to the Beast.

The "Mark of the Beast" has nothing to do with a physical mark.
It has everything to do with allegiance and who you worship.
In John's vision, those who worship the Beast have the spiritual "mark of the Beast"
In John's vision those who worship the Lamb have the spiritual "mark of the Lamb"
The mark on the forehead is a symbolic indicator of spiritual allegiance.

Um, you are treading on dangerous ground - it says pretty clearly: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Actually you are the one treading on very dangerous ground by asserting that our eternal destiny is a function of anything other than faith in Jesus Christ.
That is the core of the Gospel message, and Paul has some very harsh things to say about those who distort the Gospel of Jesus.

Your error is pretty simple. (And it is pretty common in prophetic interpretation these days)
You are attempting to interpret symbolic imagery in John's prophetic vision 'literally'.

How do we know that John's vision contains symbolic imagery?
Two reasons.
1. John tells us right up front in Rev 1:1.
The older language of the KJV actually does a good job of demonstrating this point.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

The KJV English translation of the Greek word esemanen in Rev 1:1 is signified (sign-ified), and this is an accurate translation.
In the very first verse of Revelation, John tells us that his vision contains symbolic representations of upcoming events.

2. Throughout the Book of Revelation, John actually defines a number of the symbols in his vision, such as the Great Prostitute (Rev 17:18)

So those who attempt to interpret the symbolic imagery of Revelation literally are actually in direct conflict with what John tells us about the nature of the imagery in his vision.

That is a salvation issue and if you do it you lose your salvation.

As I said above, distorting the Gospel message of salvation by grace through faith in Christ is a dangerous path to be going down.

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:41 am

Stu wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:14 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:30 pm

Stu wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:06 am
I was reading along to Revelation 14:9-12, which says the following:

Revelation 14:9-12
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Now I have understood the above to mean that if you take the mark of the beast, then you will go to hell. But what the above seems to indicate is that if you also "worship the beast and his image", that you will go to hell. Or am I reading it wrong and does it mean that you have to do both, as in "worship the beast and his image" and "receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand", only then will you go to hell. Or does it mean that if you do either one you go to hell.

The "mark of the beast" in John's vision is symbolic spiritual imagery that indicates that a person "worships the beast and his image"
Just like those who worship the Lamb have the spiritual mark of the Lamb on their foreheads in John's vision.

In John's vision a mark on the forehead is a spiritual symbol that identifies allegiance.

So any person who follows and worships the beast by definition has the "mark of the beast" on their forehead.
And any person who follows and worships the Lamb by definition has the "mark of the Lamb" on their forehead.

Which means, as a follower of the Lamb, I (by definition) have the spiritual "mark of the Lamb" on my forehead, and I would assume that you also have the mark of the Lamb on your forehead.

We are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone!
... not by any work we can do or by any physical mark that is or is not placed on our bodies.

Then why does it say that we won't be able to buy or sell without the mark. That is not symbolic.

If commerce in the marketplace involves acts of devotion to the Beast (such as offering incense to the divine emperor) then a follower of "the Lamb" would not be able to participate in normal commerce because they would refuse to participate in an act of worship to the Beast.

The "Mark of the Beast" has nothing to do with a physical mark.
It has everything to do with allegiance and who you worship.
In John's vision, those who worship the Beast have the spiritual "mark of the Beast"
In John's vision those who worship the Lamb have the spiritual "mark of the Lamb"
The mark on the forehead is a symbolic indicator of spiritual allegiance.

Um, you are treading on dangerous ground - it says pretty clearly: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Actually you are the one treading on very dangerous ground by asserting that our eternal destiny is a function of anything other than faith in Jesus Christ.
That is the core of the Gospel message, and Paul has some very harsh things to say about those who distort the Gospel of Jesus.

Your error is pretty simple. (And it is pretty common in prophetic interpretation these days)
You are attempting to interpret symbolic imagery in John's prophetic vision 'literally'.

How do we know that John's vision contains symbolic imagery?
Two reasons.
1. John tells us right up front in Rev 1:1.
The older language of the KJV actually does a good of demonstrating this point.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

The KJV English translation of the Greek word esemanen in Rev 1:1 is signified (sign-ified), and this is an accurate translation.
In the very first verse of Revelation, John tells us that his vision contains symbolic representations of upcoming events.

2. Throughout the Book of Revelation, John actually defines a number of the symbols, such as the Great Prostitute (Rev 17:18)

So those who attempt to interpret the symbolic imagery of Revelation literally are actually in direct conflict with what John tells us about the nature of the imagery in his vision.

That is a salvation issue and if you do it you lose your salvation.

As I said above, distorting the Gospel message of salvation by grace through faith in Christ is a dangerous path to be going down.

Well I think you are dead wrong on this issue and it is people like you who will take the physical mark of the beast because you think you are doing nothing wrong.

Remember, the anti-Christ is in fact "in place of Christ", so some Christians will think that they are worshipping the real Jesus and not an impostor.
The Bible even says that the anti-Christ will fool even some of the elect, so what of your average Christian who goes to church and doesn't even worry or have any knowledge of eschatology. They could very well be fooled.

You are clearly not reading what the Bible quite clearly states, or are just reading into it what you want it to say:

If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Read it again, carefully. It states, not once, but twice, that you will burn (and lose your salvation) for worshipping the beast and taking the mark. It couldn't be any clearer. How you can state otherwise is beyond me.

Do you think if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit that you will will lose your salvation?

Stu wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:03 am
Well I think you are dead wrong on this issue and it is people like you who will take the physical mark of the beast because you think you are doing nothing wrong.

Now you are misstating my position...

Show me where I said taking the mark of the beast was not wrong.
I said that the "mark of the Beast" in John's vision is a spiritual indicator that a person "worships the beast and his image". The very verse you quote directly associates the "mark of the Beast" with "worshiping the beast and his image". That is what the text says.

And anyone who "worships the Beast" is most definitely "doing something wrong"

You are clearly not reading what the Bible quite clearly states, or are just reading into it what you want it to say:

No... I am taking what the Holy Spirit inspired John says in Revelation 1:1 says very seriously, instead of just ignoring what John says about the symbolic nature (and timing for that matter) of his vision.

Read it again, carefully. It states, not once, but twice, that you will burn (and lose your salvation) for worshipping the beast and taking the mark. It couldn't be any clearer. How you can state otherwise is beyond me.

I'm not stating anything other than what John states in Rev 1:1.
I'm more than happy to state what John states... It's safer that way.

Do you think if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit that you will will lose your salvation?

No... I do not think it is possible for a person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit to "blaspheme the Holy Spirit".

DB, looks like we finally agree on something besides Christ Himself! I wonder how much we would align eschatology-wise, it seems to me many on this board gravitate towards a certain literalness with millenial reign and like.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:34 pm DB, looks like we finally agree on something besides Christ Himself!

And that's what really matters anyway.

I wonder how much we would align eschatology-wise,

I discuss my views on eschatology in the "Olivet Discourse" thread
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=42820

I give an overview of my position in this post
viewtopic.php?p=241974#p241974