Evidence for God from Science

So President Trump engaged in some shady [poop] in Ukraine.

When he got caught President Trump engaged in a cover up and a bunch of witness intimidation.

When the House attempted to investigate Trump ordered the entire government to refuse to testify or turn over any documents and to ignore all subpoenas.

When the Dems pushed back the Administration said that any subpoenas issued would be challenged in court, all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary - a process that we all know would have taken years. The subpoenas the Dems sent out were, in fact, challenged.

When the Articles of Impeachment went to the Senate for trial the GOP senators declined to call witnesses on the grounds that it wasn't their job to investigate anything and the House should have called more witnesses if they wanted them. (Consider the previous point.)

Trump will now be acquitted, despite that fact that there's near universal agreement that he did what he's been accused of doing.

In other words, there is now a precedent that if the President doesn't feel like being impeached he can simply derail the whole process by refusing to cooperate and hiding behind the courts until his term is up.

Our Constitution is deliberately vague. Our system revolves around a series of established norms and precedents based on past interpretations of the Constitution. Donald Trump has been violating norms and ignoring precedents for 3 years. When the President violates norms they cease to be norms, and when he ignores precedents he sets a precedent that precedents can be ignored.

Trump will very likely lose the 2020 election. If he somehow wins then he's going to be the guy in the Oval Office when we get nailed by the massive recession that economists are forecasting for 2020 or 2021. If that happens the GOP will surely be annihilated in 2024. Either way, there will be a Democrat in the White House in the near future.

And conservatives are going to have to live with a Democratic President who can do whatever she feels like with no fear of oversight, because Donald Trump set that precedent and the Senate GOP backed him up.

So is anyone else horrified?

I completely understand your frustration, with the fact that it's Super Bowl weekend, and the Patriots aren’t in the big game.

Let it go. Just let it go.

I wouldn't say I'm horrified.
I would say that I am now more educated regarding how deeply Trump's corruption has infected the Republican party as a whole.

However, I do have respect for the integrity of Romney and especially Collins.
Collins made the right call on Kavanaugh and I believe she also made the right call on calling witnesses.

Going in, I think everyone knew that the Senate was going to eventually acquit Trump. So the vote coming up on Wednesday shouldn't surprise anyone.
And I can understand the logic behind letting the voters decide Trump's fate, since we are mere months away from an election.
I still hold my opinion that IMHO it would be better for the country if the voters unambiguously reject Trump's corruption and criminal behavior in November.

That said, I was absolutely disgusted with the Republicans for blocking testimony from a witness with first hand knowledge who was begging to testify. Bolton said he would honor a subpoena from the Senate, so there was no legitimate reason for the Senate to block putting Bolton under oath to see what he had to say... unless they were colluding with the President in a cover up.

If Republicans don't consider "illegally withholding military aide from Ukraine in an effort to extort foreign interference in an American election" to be an impeachable offense, they should at least acknowledge that behavior as corrupt and do something like censure the President.

Bottom line...
We all knew that the Senate would acquit Trump (no surprise there).
It is (and IMHO should be) up to the voters to announce their verdict this November.

I'm actually finding a Chiefs - Niners Superbowl very relaxing. Hopefully it's a good game. Other than that I couldn't care less.

My concern for the future of my country is a bit of a distraction, though.

edwardmurphy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:13 pm My concern for the future of my country is a bit of a distraction, though.

Have no fear, Trump is on the job and will be for another 4 years. The country is safe from the do-nothing dems, now that the Schumer Schiff Sham Show is almost over.

edwardmurphy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:13 pm ...

My concern for the future of my country is a bit of a distraction, though.

Nobody cares about your piddling concerns . TRUMPOHOLICS RULE!

USA! USA! USA!

Byblos wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:38 pm

edwardmurphy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:13 pm My concern for the future of my country is a bit of a distraction, though.

Have no fear, Trump is on the job and will be for another 4 years. The country is safe from the do-nothing dems, now that the Schumer Schiff Sham Show is almost over.

Didn't the Democrats say that they will try for impeachment again if they get the chance?

Stu wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:43 am

Byblos wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:38 pm

edwardmurphy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:13 pm My concern for the future of my country is a bit of a distraction, though.

Have no fear, Trump is on the job and will be for another 4 years. The country is safe from the do-nothing dems, now that the Schumer Schiff Sham Show is almost over.

Didn't the Democrats say that they will try for impeachment again if they get the chance?

Oh if nothing else, they are a tenacious bunch. And I really do mean nothing else.

Stu wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:43 am

Byblos wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:38 pm

edwardmurphy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:13 pm My concern for the future of my country is a bit of a distraction, though.

Have no fear, Trump is on the job and will be for another 4 years. The country is safe from the do-nothing dems, now that the Schumer Schiff Sham Show is almost over.

Didn't the Democrats say that they will try for impeachment again if they get the chance?

I believe the House impeachment investigation is still ongoing.
The subpoenas that the White House has refused to comply with are still making their way through the courts.
And I would guess that when the Supreme Court finally rules on those subpoenas, then the House will have more hearings to make any new information available to the American people.

Since Bolton recently announced that he would honor a subpoena from the Senate, I am guessing that the House will try to subpoena Bolton again to get his sworn testimony on record.

However, I doubt that the House will send any more articles of impeachment to the Senate again.
Everyone in the Senate is now officially on record, and sending new articles to the Senate would be a waste of time for everyone.

The House can use their own internal processes to continue the investigation and make additional information available to the American public.
If the Senate is going to openly collude with Trump's attempt to conceal information regarding his lies and misconduct, then the House is the only institution that is willing (in this case VERY willing) and able to uncover this information and make it known to the American people (ie voters).

I don’t think this impeachment trial is going to win Trump another 4 years.

I think the Democrat candidates will do that.

Bernie Sanders? Seriously?

Joe Biden? Are you kidding?

Elizabeth Warren?

Trump will tear them to shreds.

The dems need another Obama-like candidate, if they want a chance in 2024.

DBowling wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:44 amIf the Senate is going to openly collude with Trump's attempt to conceal information regarding his lies and misconduct, then the House is the only institution that is willing (in this case VERY willing) and able to uncover this information and make it known to the American people (ie voters).

The open collusion is very disheartening. It also really raises the stakes of the 2020 election. What America desperately needs is for the Republicans to get utterly destroyed and humiliated at the polls. They need to get the message that their win at all costs, Constitution be damned approach will not be tolerated. This isn't about policy, it's about the protection of our democracy. If Trump and the GOP get away with this then the precedent is "anything goes."

I don't expect blindly loyal, diehard Trumpies to grasp the seriousness of what's happening here or to care about anything other than a short term win, but I think that a lot of independents and true conservatives are disgusted and enraged right now, and I know liberals and progressives are. The Senate just openly colluded with the Administration whose power they're supposed to be checking, in blatant violation of the Constitution. This is the first impeachment trial ever - EVER - where no witnesses have been called, and it's obvious why that decision was made.

I expect the House to keep on this like a dog with a bone, and I think that a lot more information will come out. The GOP will pay for this.

King Donald.

edwardmurphy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:09 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:44 amIf the Senate is going to openly collude with Trump's attempt to conceal information regarding his lies and misconduct, then the House is the only institution that is willing (in this case VERY willing) and able to uncover this information and make it known to the American people (ie voters).

The open collusion is very disheartening. It also really raises the stakes of the 2020 election. What America desperately needs is for the Republicans to get utterly destroyed and humiliated at the polls. They need to get the message that their win at all costs, Constitution be damned approach will not be tolerated. This isn't about policy, it's about the protection of our democracy. If Trump and the GOP get away with this then the precedent is "anything goes."

I don't expect blindly loyal, diehard Trumpies to grasp the seriousness of what's happening here or to care about anything other than a short term win, but I think that a lot of independents and true conservatives are disgusted and enraged right now, and I know liberals and progressives are. The Senate just openly colluded with the Administration whose power they're supposed to be checking, in blatant violation of the Constitution. This is the first impeachment trial ever - EVER - where no witnesses have been called, and it's obvious why that decision was made.

I expect the House to keep on this like a dog with a bone, and I think that a lot more information will come out. The GOP will pay for this.

Palleeease. Spare us your insincere righteous indignation about the constitution. You wouldn't know the constitution if it smacked you in the face. This whole Schumer Schiff Sham Show directed by Pelosi was unconstitutional from the get-go. A purely partisan exercise with no due process, zero evidence, and a con rush job, all in an effort to box the senate who refused to do the house's dirty work.

GOP will pay for this? We shall see in November, won't we. I can tell you this, no matter the outcome in November, I may not like it but will accept it and move on. You think the do-nothing democrats will accept it and move on? Go ahead, hold your breath.

The only thing that truly shocks me is that anyone is shocked but what ANY politician does anymore.
Trump simply wasn't smart enough ( or cared enough) to be discreet in the same way that every other president or politician has been when they do this "quid pro quo" crap.

EdwardMurphy wrote:
So is anyone else horrified?

Ask me this again in November, if Bernie gets elected.