Evidence for God from Science

Click on the link for the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOB9Orc ... rP&index=6

FYI,

Dean Odle is a geocentrist, and he believes in a flat earth.

What ever method he uses to interpret scripture to come to the geocentric and flat earth conclusions, puts in to question his ability to understand eschatology.

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:53 am FYI,

Dean Odle is a geocentrist, and he believes in a flat earth.

What ever method he uses to interpret scripture to come to the geocentric and flat earth conclusions, puts in to question his ability to understand eschatology.

I listen to him a lot and he knows plenty about the Bible from his 32 years as a pastor.

He teaches the whole word of God as it should be taught, with Jesus front and centre.

Reaching a flat earth conclusion from the Bible is a very easy thing to do, in fact the Hebrews themselves believed in a flat earth with a dome over it. Heiser believes the Bible teaches a flat earth. You have to dismiss or look past parts of the Bible if you stick to the heliocentric model like Joshua telling the sun to stand still. Either the Bible is not the inspired word of God and Joshua got it wrong or it is as the flat earth model says, the sun circles the earth in "it's circuit" as Psalms says and was easily stopped. If the earth is spinning at 1,000mph as it revolves around the sun at 66,600mph while the sun shoots through space at 450,000mph while the Milky Way moving through space at 650,000,000 mph, how is the sun supposed to complete a circuit as is said in Psalms.

As Pastor dean has said though, just because you disagree with someone on an issue doesn't mean you can't learn something from them, in this instance preterism. It really is a ludicrous position when you take all the Bible has to say about the end times. Many of the events detailed in the Bible did not take place in 70 AD. The number one is that Revelation was written after 70 AD according to Polycarp and Irenaeus.

I will never defend Full Pretersim
However,Partial Preterism is consistent with both Scripture and history.

Note: Quick explanation
In a nutshell Partial Preterism acknowledges that the prophecies regarding the "Great Tribulation" were fulfilled during the events surrounding the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. And these prophecies regarding the "Great Tribulation" were fulfilled within the timeframe specifically identified by both Jesus and John the Apostle.
Partial Preterism also teaches that Jesus will physically return in conjunction with the Resurrection of the Dead and the Final Judgement at some unknown time in the future. In the Olivet Discourse Jesus points out that no one knows the time of his return and it will be a surprise when it happens.

Kenneth Gentry addresses a number of Dean Odle's unscriptural assertions in two videos below that I have posted previously.

Here is a discussion by Kenneth Gentry on the external evidence to support a pre-70 AD date for the book of Revelation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQat84yBUvs

Here Kenneth Gentry discusses the internal evidence to support a pre-70 AD date
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZngW7fp_wvk

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:56 am I will never defend Full Pretersim
However,Partial Preterism is consistent with both Scripture and history.

Note: Quick explanation
In a nutshell Partial Preterism acknowledges that the prophecies regarding the "Great Tribulation" were fulfilled during the events surrounding the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. And these prophecies regarding the "Great Tribulation" were fulfilled within the timeframe specifically identified by both Jesus and John the Apostle.
Partial Preterism also teaches that Jesus will physically return in conjunction with the Resurrection of the Dead and the Final Judgement at some unknown time in the future. In the Olivet Discourse Jesus points out that no one knows the time of his return and it will be a surprise when it happens.

Kenneth Gentry addresses a number of Dean Odle's unscriptural assertions in two videos below that I have posted previously.

Here is a discussion by Kenneth Gentry on the external evidence to support a pre-70 AD date for the book of Revelation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQat84yBUvs

Here Kenneth Gentry discusses the internal evidence to support a pre-70 AD date
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZngW7fp_wvk

So you believe that the Anti-Christ has come and gone?

The Bible tells of a time of war that the world has never seen and will never see again. That is NOT what happened in 70AD we had WWI and WWII that were both far larger than that.

As for knowing the time of his return, that is a false reading of that.

The Bible also says that Christians will be able to tell when the time is at hand, as the bold part below indicates.

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Jesus says we will not know the day or the hour of his return. That is pretty specific, day, or hour. But we will be able to tell the season because we are not in darkness and the Bible is full of clues as to when God's wrath begins, when those who take the mark start to have boils appear on their skin and the rest of the vials.

Stu wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:13 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:56 am However,Partial Preterism is consistent with both Scripture and history.

Note: Quick explanation
In a nutshell Partial Preterism acknowledges that the prophecies regarding the "Great Tribulation" were fulfilled during the events surrounding the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. And these prophecies regarding the "Great Tribulation" were fulfilled within the timeframe specifically identified by both Jesus and John the Apostle.
Partial Preterism also teaches that Jesus will physically return in conjunction with the Resurrection of the Dead and the Final Judgement at some unknown time in the future. In the Olivet Discourse Jesus points out that no one knows the time of his return and it will be a surprise when it happens.

Kenneth Gentry addresses a number of Dean Odle's unscriptural assertions in two videos below that I have posted previously.

Here is a discussion by Kenneth Gentry on the external evidence to support a pre-70 AD date for the book of Revelation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQat84yBUvs

Here Kenneth Gentry discusses the internal evidence to support a pre-70 AD date
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZngW7fp_wvk

So you believe that the Anti-Christ has come and gone?

Let's see what Scripture says...
1 John 4:1-3

4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

The Apostle John explicitly states that the antichrist was already in the world when he wrote 1 John

As for knowing the time of his return, that is a false reading of that.

Actually that is exactly what Jesus said.
Your argument is with Jesus not me.
Matthew 24:36-44

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Now let's look at your reference to 1 Thes 5:1-5

The Bible also says that Christians will be able to tell when the time is at hand, as the bold part below indicates.

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

In 1 Thes 5:2 Paul refers to the "Day of the Lord" which is a term used throughout both the Old and New Testaments to periods of judgment by God.
And this is exactly what happened with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.

Jesus' Olivet Discourse specifically contrasts the time frames of the Great Tribulation and the Physical return of Jesus.

Great Tribulation - Many signs accompanied the Great Tribulation and Jesus told his disciples what those signs would be so they could be prepared for the tribulation to come. Jesus also told his disciples when the Great Tribulation would happen.
Mat 24:34 "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
And the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD) did happen within a generation (40 yrs) of when Jesus made this prophecy (33 AD).

Return of Christ - However, Jesus says that no one knows when he will return (Mat 24:36, 42, 44, 50). And unlike the Great Tribulation (which Jesus says would happen within a generation), Jesus says that he would "stay away a long time" (Mat 24:48) before his physical return.

In 1 Thes 5:1-5 Paul (like Jesus in Mat 24) is identifying signs associated with the coming Great Tribulation which according to Jesus would (and did) happen within a generation (40 years).

Jesus (in the Olivet Discourse) and John the Apostle (in Revelation) both correctly prophesied the timing of the Great Tribulation.

So much to go through but answer me this.

The Bible tells of a time of war that the world has never seen before and will never see again. That is NOT what happened in 70AD we had WWI and WWII that were both far larger than that. It couldn't have been what took place in 70AD.

What about the mark of the beast, it says no one will be able to buy and sell without it. Did that happen?

And don't tell me it's a spiritual mark because how would they be able to control all buying and selling if there is no physical mark to see that you have it.

Just because many things that were prophesied related to the First Century, does not mean that they won't be parallel events or anti-Christs impacting the world in our own time or future. Obviously, Israel becoming a nation again, its re-capturing of ancient borders - these are clearly related to prophecy as well. So, it's not all necessary and either or (First Century or the future).

The problem, for Christians is, when they become obsessive over things they currently have no way of fully understanding. Or they assert a specific way of things ending or when. Or that they think if they don't do this or that (have enough food stored, weapons, etc.), that they are doomed. What does the Psalmist say? "The king is not saved by his great army; a warrior is not delivered by his great strength." It doesn't mean we aren't to be wise, but there are a million scenarios that could harm us, and we simply are inadequate to protect ourselves. And we simply can't know specifics right now.

Stu wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:00 am So much to go through but answer me this.

The Bible tells of a time of war that the world has never seen before and will never see again. That is NOT what happened in 70AD we had WWI and WWII that were both far larger than that. It couldn't have been what took place in 70AD.

Well once again let's see what Scripture actually says...
It helpful to compare the relevant Matthew and Luke accounts of the Olivet Discourse
Matthew 24:15-21

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Luke 21:20-23

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

When we compare Mat 24 and Luke 21, we see that Jesus explicitly associates the "great distress" or Great Tribulation (Mat 24:21) with "Jerusalem being surrounded by armies" (Luke 21:20) in AD 70.

This timing is confirmed in both the Matthew and Luke accounts of Jesus' teaching.
Mat 24:34
"Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
Luke 21:32
"Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
Both Matthew and Luke confirm that the Destruction of Jerusalem and the Great Tribulation would occur within the timespan of the current generation.

If we focus only on the physical "distress" of 70 AD, we are actually overlooking the most significant distress that took place. The "distress" of 70 to the Jews was an enormous spiritual distress. Think about the significance of the Temple being destroyed and the spiritual impact of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple to the Jewish people. The spiritual impact of 70 AD is even greater that the massive brutality of what the Romans did to the Jews.

What about the mark of the beast, it says no one will be able to buy and sell without it. Did that happen?

Short answer yes...
As John said in the very first verse of Revelation
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must SOON take place."

Jesus correctly prophesied when the Great Tribulation would take place when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away"
And John correctly prophesied when the Beast would appear when he said they "must SOON take place." (Rev 1:1) and "the time is NEAR." (Rev 1:3)

We've already discussed this multiple times in other threads at this site, so there is no need for me to repeat myself.
But for those who haven't read my other posts, Mr. 666 is none other than Nero Caesar.

Here's a good lecture by Kenneth Gentry
Beast of Revelation: Identified
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6kWLW_y4e4

Philip wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:26 am Just because many things that were prophesied related to the First Century, does not mean that they won't be parallel events or anti-Christs impacting the world in our own time or future. Obviously, Israel becoming a nation again, its re-capturing of ancient borders - these are clearly related to prophecy as well. So, it's not all necessary and either or (First Century or the future).

The problem, for Christians is, when they become obsessive over things they currently have no way of fully understanding. Or they assert a specific way of things ending or when. Or that they think if they don't do this or that (have enough food stored, weapons, etc.), that they are doomed. What does the Psalmist say? "The king is not saved by his great army; a warrior is not delivered by his great strength." It doesn't mean we aren't to be wise, but there are a million scenarios that could harm us, and we simply are inadequate to protect ourselves. And we simply can't know specifics right now.

The Bible is full of specifics. In fact the Bible goes into very specific detail about the end times.... hmmmm almost as if God wanted us to know what was coming, not to be caught unawares.

The 7 Seals, the 7 Trumpets, the 7 Vials.

For instance it says that the Anti-Christ (not an anti-Christ) will make war with many countries in the Middle-East but Edom, Moab and Ammon will be spared, which is modern day Jordan. That is pretty specific and why wouldn't he make war with Jordan well maybe because he already has control of it or is from that country. We can then identify the Anti-Christ from things like this.

God doesn't want us to be caught unaware hence all the scriptures that are in the Bible. But if we think they have already happened we won't be looking for them, even the Anti-Christ.

Stu wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:21 am The Bible is full of specifics. In fact the Bible goes into very specific detail about the end times.... hmmmm almost as if God wanted us to know what was coming, not to be caught unawares.

Hmmmmmm...
And when Jesus says
"this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." (Mat 24:34)

And when the Apostle John says
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."
"blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

Its almost as if Jesus wanted his followers at the time to know what would SOON happen to THIS GENERATION because the TIME IS NEAR.