Evidence for God from Science

I'm not a Christian, although I was one for a short time. During that period, the most fascinating argument that I heard in favor of Christianity was the one I alluded to in the thread title; that the Jesus story is the greatest love story ever told, in fact, it's the greatest love story that ever could be told. And it's hard to imagine that something so powerful, beautiful and mind-boggling could have been thought up by some people two thousand years ago.

Why am I writing this post? I am thinking aloud because this argument still fascinates me to no end and I obsess about it on a daily basis. And I want to hear other people's thoughts on this.

So why is this the greatest love story? You can measure the love of an action by the distance that the lover crossed for the beloved. The Jesus story is a story of a God who crossed an infinite distance for the beloved who couldn't deserve it less. Why an infinite distance? Because the same God who created the incomprehensibly large and beautiful universe, bigger and more majestic than the human mind can conceive, willingly became a crucified criminal after being mercilessly whipped, tortured, slapped, spat in the face and mocked, and He did all this for the sake of those very people who put Him through all that suffering.

The heavens declare the glory of God. So let's take a look at the heavens. The same God who created this:



crossed an infinite distance to become this:



For what? From whom? For all of us, but even for those who nailed him on that cross.

True or false, it is the most beautiful, most powerful, most mind-boggling story ever told. That the Creator God, the ruler of all the universe would go to such lengths to save this race of rebels, it's beyond words.

In fact, for those of us who aren't Christians, I think we ought to at leat pause for a second and think: could human beings have made this up? It's the beauty of all beauty, the love of all loves.

In fact, I think you can put this in the form of a philosophical argument, but I will do this with caution and humility, because I've never had a single class in philosophy in my life.

1. God is by definition the greatest conceivable being
2. Love is the greatest perfection a being can have
3. Therefore, God must possess love in the highest degree possible

1. If God exists, the conception of God that portrays him as having the greatest degree of love possible, must be true
2. Christianity portrays God as having the greatest degree of love possible
3. Therefore, if God exists, Christianity is true

Yes, I am obviously aware that the argument presupposes that God exists. But you know what? The vast majority of people believe in some kind of God. So if my argument is sound and valid, all those people should instantly convert to Christianity.

Well, food for thought.

Noah1201 wrote:
I'm not a Christian, although I was one for a short time.

Sorry, I don’t believe this.

Your believing that God exists, and your believing in Christ’s divinity doesn’t mean you were a Christian anymore than my believing that my wife exists, and she’s human, makes me married to her.

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:20 am

Noah1201 wrote:
I'm not a Christian, although I was one for a short time.

Sorry, I don’t believe this.

Your believing that God exists, and your believing in Christ’s divinity doesn’t mean you were a Christian anymore than my believing that my wife exists, and she’s human, makes me married to her.

You're off-topic, so I reported your post. Both your post and this one I just wrote should be deleted.

Noah1201 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:53 am

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:20 am

Noah1201 wrote:
I'm not a Christian, although I was one for a short time.

Sorry, I don’t believe this.

Your believing that God exists, and your believing in Christ’s divinity doesn’t mean you were a Christian anymore than my believing that my wife exists, and she’s human, makes me married to her.

You're off-topic, so I reported your post. Both your post and this one I just wrote should be deleted.

Off topic? I responded to the very first line you posted. You started the topic, I responded to what you posted, and somehow that’s off topic?

Noah1201 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:53 am

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:20 am

Noah1201 wrote:
I'm not a Christian, although I was one for a short time.

Sorry, I don’t believe this.

Your believing that God exists, and your believing in Christ’s divinity doesn’t mean you were a Christian anymore than my believing that my wife exists, and she’s human, makes me married to her.

You're off-topic, so I reported your post. Both your post and this one I just wrote should be deleted.

You would report a post for being off topic?

That's not report worthy... It's emoticon worthy



Is talking about being off topic, being off topic or being on topic?

Noah1201 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:43 am I'm not a Christian, although I was one for a short time.

I’m not buyin’ it, I think you’re still a Christian

Noah1201 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:43 am So why is this the greatest love story? You can measure the love of an action by the distance that the lover crossed for the beloved. The Jesus story is a story of a God who crossed an infinite distance for the beloved who couldn't deserve it less. Why an infinite distance? Because the same God who created the incomprehensibly large and beautiful universe, bigger and more majestic than the human mind can conceive, willingly became a crucified criminal after being mercilessly whipped, tortured, slapped, spat in the face and mocked, and He did all this for the sake of those very people who put Him through all that suffering.

I’m not a Christian, although I was for some time. But I don’t see it as a very good love story, I think a better love story would have been; if he isn’t gonna create us morally perfect so we never do wrong, at least keep in constant contact with us to keep us on the straight and narrow. Consider the scenario of 3 clock makers; in which order would you consider to be the best thru worse

#1- One who makes a flawless clock that always tells perfect time, never wrong time
#2- One who makes a flawed clock that occasionally goes wrong, but he is constantly readjusting it so it at least stays close to accurate time
#3- One who makes a flawed clock that goes wrong, and he never makes corrections, he just lets it remain wrong.

Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:48 am
...I’m not a Christian, although I was for some time....

Good Gawd...anyone who says “I’m not a Christian but I used to be” doesn’t even understand what being a Christian is. Once you become a Christian, there is no going back. It’s impossible. Those who say “I used to be a Christian” are actually saying, “I used to practice a religion”. Such people were never Christians in the biblical sense.

By analogy, becoming a Christian is like going below the event horizon on a black hole. Once you are below the event horizon, any escape requires you to go beyond the speed of light. That’s impossible. Go below a black hole’s event horizon and you are invariably trapped with no possibility of escape. Ever.

So it’s impossible to be a “former Christian” just as it’s impossible to escape from a Black Hole once it has caught you. I know atheists love to say “I used to be a former Christian until...” but it’s a bogus claim. You should say, “I used to go to church” or “I used to believe in god”.

FlieG: Good Gawd...anyone who says “I’m not a Christian but I used to be” doesn’t even understand what being a Christian is.

I think a more accurate statement from Ken would be, "I once THOUGHT I was a Christian, as I once believed in God."


James 2:19: You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!


Mark 1:24: “What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.”

So, Ken, do you believe in TEMPORARY / eternal life?

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:46 am

FlieG: Good Gawd...anyone who says “I’m not a Christian but I used to be” doesn’t even understand what being a Christian is.

I think a more accurate statement from Ken would be, "I once THOUGHT I was a Christian, as I once believed in God."

Yes, that’s more accurate but no atheist would ever say that. When an atheist says, “I used to be a Christian”, it gives them a sense of validation in their own mind. The statement “I used to be a Christian” is also a diploma of sorts, conferring honour among other atheists, a way of saying, “I used to be stupid and believe all that religion crap so you can trust my knowledge...”.

Another thing: in my answer to Kenny, I expressly suggested he say “I used to believe in god” (small-g god) because former ersatz Christians like him never believed in God. They believed in some hocus-pocus creation they somehow formed in their own minds. In this sense, their god is like the Mormon god or the Witness god: a facsimile of God.

Fliegender wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:07 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:48 am
...I’m not a Christian, although I was for some time....

Good Gawd...anyone who says “I’m not a Christian but I used to be” doesn’t even understand what being a Christian is. Once you become a Christian, there is no going back. It’s impossible. Those who say “I used to be a Christian” are actually saying, “I used to practice a religion”. Such people were never Christians in the biblical sense.

By analogy, becoming a Christian is like going below the event horizon on a black hole. Once you are below the event horizon, any escape requires you to go beyond the speed of light. That’s impossible. Go below a black hole’s event horizon and you are invariably trapped with no possibility of escape. Ever.


CC9F64BC-C0C0-48E2-8170-99B5B23AFCD3.jpeg

So it’s impossible to be a “former Christian” just as it’s impossible to escape from a Black Hole once it has caught you. I know atheists love to say “I used to be a former Christian until...” but it’s a bogus claim. You should say, “I used to go to church” or “I used to believe in god”.

A Christian is just someone who profess a belief in Jesus the Christ.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Christian

Just because you say it does not make it so; if you can find an outside source that supports your claim, your words would be more believable. Otherwise you are just describing your subjective view of what a Christian is.

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:46 am So, Ken, do you believe in TEMPORARY / eternal life?

What does TEMPORARY/eternal mean?

Kenny wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:14 pm ...
A Christian is just someone who profess a belief in Jesus the Christ.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Christian

Just because you say it does not make it so; if you can find an outside source that supports your claim, your words would be more believable. Otherwise you are just describing your subjective view of what a Christian is.

I’m using the biblical definition of Christianity. You’re using the secular definition because it serves your purpose. You can use that on an atheist forum and they will see you exactly as you see yourself: Someone who has overcome the indoctrination of a terrible and stupid religion.

That doesn’t work here. This is a Christian site and we know what a Christian is. I know you want to think you were a Christian but, no. You were never a Christian, sorry. You were just a ...nominal Christian. A fake.

Fliegender wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:19 pm

Kenny wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:14 pm ...
A Christian is just someone who profess a belief in Jesus the Christ.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Christian

Just because you say it does not make it so; if you can find an outside source that supports your claim, your words would be more believable. Otherwise you are just describing your subjective view of what a Christian is.

I’m using the biblical definition of Christianity. You’re using the secular definition because it serves your purpose.

Then by all means; provide the biblical definition of Christianity; scripture included.

Ken: What does TEMPORARY/eternal mean?

That's a great question - because the term is an oxymoron - least according to Scripture, when a person is saved, that is an ETERNAL position - as they'll never again NOT be saved! Scripture notes that mere belief is not enough to save, as it says, even demons believe in God / Christ, but they've never wanted Him or truly desired to commit themselves to following Him / have ultimately rejected Him. A Believer's salvation is not a matter of continued effort and just TRYING hard to maintain it - a salvation they could not obtain by themselves, much less retain / maintain. God's Holy Spirit indwells and seals ALL truly save Christians FOREVER - HE maintains it! Many may look to cloak themselves in Christian talk and activities, but that's as deep as it ever goes for them, so God has not saved such people, unless they go beyond it to inviting Him and desiring His salvation. There's a clear difference! And Ken, I do hope one day you'll desire and commit yourself to Jesus - as it is HE Who does the drawing AND the sealing. But one must sincerely want AND request it (see the thief on the cross!).

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:14 pm

Ken: What does TEMPORARY/eternal mean?

That's a great question - because the term is an oxymoron - least according to Scripture, when a person is saved, that is an ETERNAL position - as they'll never again NOT be saved! Scripture notes that mere belief is not enough to save, as it says, even demons believe in God / Christ, but they've never wanted Him or truly desired to commit themselves to following Him / have ultimately rejected Him. A Believer's salvation is not a matter of continued effort and just TRYING hard to maintain it - a salvation they could not obtain by themselves, much less retain / maintain. God's Holy Spirit indwells and seals ALL truly save Christians FOREVER - HE maintains it! Many may look to cloak themselves in Christian talk and activities, but that's as deep as it ever goes for them, so God has not saved such people, unless they go beyond it to inviting Him and desiring His salvation. There's a clear difference! And Ken, I do hope one day you'll desire and commit yourself to Jesus - as it is HE Who does the drawing AND the sealing. But one must sincerely want AND request it (see the thief on the cross!).

If "temporary/eternal" life is an oxymoron, why did you bring it up?