Evidence for God from Science

It is very easy for End Times discussions to degenerate into different kinds of conspiracy theories that have no basis in Scripture.

In an effort to see what Scripture actually says about the End Times,
Here is a series of twelve 25 minute lectures that the late RC Sproul gave on...
The Last Days According to Jesus
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... zJj5VEduus

The title of the first lecture is
Crisis in Eschatology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n22MRa0 ... ex=1&t=12s

In this first lecture Sproul discusses how Eschatology has a significant impact on:
- the perceived credibility of Scripture
- and even more importantly... the perceived credibility of Jesus

In this series, Sproul provides a lot of information about what Jesus said about the "Last Days", particularly in his Olivet Discourse.

DBowling wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:27 am It is very easy for End Times discussions to degenerate into different kinds of conspiracy theories that have no basis in Scripture.

In an effort to see what Scripture actually says about the End Times,
Here is a series of twelve 25 minute lectures that the late RC Sproul gave on...
The Last Days According to Jesus
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... zJj5VEduus

The title of the first lecture is
Crisis in Eschatology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n22MRa0 ... ex=1&t=12s

In this first lecture Sproul discusses how Eschatology has a significant impact on:
- the perceived credibility of Scripture
- and even more importantly... the perceived credibility of Jesus

In this series, Sproul provides a lot of information about what Jesus said about the "Last Days", particularly in his Olivet Discourse.

Another excellent lecture in this series is Sproul's fourth Lecture
Literal or Figurative?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb5B5pj ... us&index=4

In this lecture, Sproul begins to establish his interpretive approach to the Olivet Discourse

DB, I think you are in for a rude awakening when this whole vaccine thing goes from "my body my choice", to "vaccination is mandatory" (already there in some instances), to "vaccinate or get imprisoned" to eventually what the Bible says is coming in the end times with the mark of the beast, chip or death.

For your sake I hope you wake up at some point when the anti-christ comes on the scene and the world is getting chipped and realise that preterism is wrong and that if you take that mark, worship the beast or his image you go to the lake of fire.

Surely you can see that everything is not business as usual, financially (you can't taper a ponzi), spiritually and morally the world is as bad as it's ever been. It's all moving toward something, and it ain't good.

Stu wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:14 am DB, I think you are in for a rude awakening when this whole vaccine thing goes from "my body my choice", to "vaccination is mandatory" (already there in some instances), to "vaccinate or get imprisoned" to eventually what the Bible says is coming in the end times with the mark of the beast, chip or death.

Here is a link to Sproul's lecture on "The Beast"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR12QsI ... s&index=10

Do you have any Scriptures that contradict what Sproul says in his lecture?

For your sake I hope you wake up at some point when the anti-christ comes on the scene and the world is getting chipped and realise that preterism is wrong and that if you take that mark, worship the beast or his image you go to the lake of fire.

Here is a link to Sproul's lecture on "The AntiChrist"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDYBQjF ... us&index=9

Do you have any Scriptures that contradict what Sproul says in his lecture?


And BTW... I appreciate your concern about my eternal destination, but I have put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ. And as such I already have the "Mark of the Lamb" on my forehead.

As a follower of Jesus, I believe that Jesus was telling the truth when he said:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

I am in very good hands with Jesus... Thank You

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:36 am

Stu wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:14 am DB, I think you are in for a rude awakening when this whole vaccine thing goes from "my body my choice", to "vaccination is mandatory" (already there in some instances), to "vaccinate or get imprisoned" to eventually what the Bible says is coming in the end times with the mark of the beast, chip or death.

Here is a link to Sproul's lecture on "The Beast"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR12QsI ... s&index=10

Do you have any Scriptures that contradict what Sproul says in his lecture?

For your sake I hope you wake up at some point when the anti-christ comes on the scene and the world is getting chipped and realise that preterism is wrong and that if you take that mark, worship the beast or his image you go to the lake of fire.

Here is a link to Sproul's lecture on "The AntiChrist"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDYBQjF ... us&index=9

Do you have any Scriptures that contradict what Sproul says in his lecture?


And BTW... I appreciate your concern about my eternal destination, but I have put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ. And as such I already have the "Mark of the Lamb" on my forehead.

As a follower of Jesus, I believe that Jesus was telling the truth when he said:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

I am in very good hands with Jesus... Thank You

There are unforgivable sins.

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is one along with worshipping the beast and his image and taking the mark of the beast.

Revelation 14:9-12 KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

It is pretty clear here that if you do any of those 3 things you shall go to hell. The key is in verse 12, if you keep (present tense), not if you have kept in the past (take the mark), you must keep the commandments and not worship the beast or his image.

So, yes, of course you are saved with Jesus but if you are wrong and the anti-Christ is yet to come and you do any of those 3 things, you will go to hell. I don't know how you can say anything else.

Stu wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:02 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:36 am

Stu wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:14 am DB, I think you are in for a rude awakening when this whole vaccine thing goes from "my body my choice", to "vaccination is mandatory" (already there in some instances), to "vaccinate or get imprisoned" to eventually what the Bible says is coming in the end times with the mark of the beast, chip or death.

Here is a link to Sproul's lecture on "The Beast"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR12QsI ... s&index=10

Do you have any Scriptures that contradict what Sproul says in his lecture?

For your sake I hope you wake up at some point when the anti-christ comes on the scene and the world is getting chipped and realise that preterism is wrong and that if you take that mark, worship the beast or his image you go to the lake of fire.

Here is a link to Sproul's lecture on "The AntiChrist"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDYBQjF ... us&index=9

Do you have any Scriptures that contradict what Sproul says in his lecture?


And BTW... I appreciate your concern about my eternal destination, but I have put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ. And as such I already have the "Mark of the Lamb" on my forehead.

As a follower of Jesus, I believe that Jesus was telling the truth when he said:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

I am in very good hands with Jesus... Thank You

There are unforgivable sins.

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is one along with worshipping the beast and his image and taking the mark of the beast.

To your point...
If someone puts their faith and trust in the beast and worships the beast, that is a pretty good sign that haven't put their faith and trust in Jesus.

But let's get back to the explicit teaching of Scripture...
Was Jesus lying or telling the truth when he said?
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

Ephesians 2:8-9 explicitly states that...

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Here's what Paul says about those who pervert the Gospel of Jesus
Gal 1:6-8

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

I cannot imagine how miserable life must be for a Christian who thinks he can lose salvation. Always having to make sure he doesn’t do something wrong that would throw him into hell. It’s such an unnecessary weight to be placed on himself.

I thank God that Jesus Christ paid the price for my salvation, and that all I had to do was trust in him for eternal life. I don’t know if I could live with the idea that my eternal destiny is linked to the way I perform, or what I do or don’t do.

Rick: I cannot imagine how miserable life must be for a Christian who thinks he can lose salvation. Always having to make sure he doesn’t do something wrong that would throw him into hell. It’s such an unnecessary weight to be placed on himself.

Absolutely! How one thinks they can maintain such an unmerited state (salvation!), a position they could not have obtained at all without Christ initiating it, is beyond me. But here's what I REALLY don't get - all the yakking about how "one CAN lose their salvation., blah, blah." I mean, a person who "abandons" their faith in Christ has already come to the conclusion that their previous "faith" / belief was useless or fantasy. (Note that faith and mere belief are NOT the same thing! Also note that even demons accurately BELIEVE who Jesus is: James 2:19, Luke 4:34, Acts 16:17, Mark 1:24, Matthew 8:29). So a previously self-claimed "believer: typically knows the Scriptures - meaning, they must subsequently doubt that there ever really was such a thing as them having come to salvation to begin with. So, why all the non-stop yakking and obsession about this (false) assertion? Is it because people wish to warn present Christians so they won't fall into it - so they will now to just double down in an effort to make sure it doesn't happen to them? That's highly unlikely! I see relentlessly arguing for this position as a pride thing that people just like to debate over - typically, because THEIR denomination or individual church teaches it. But they never can answer the key Scriptures supporting ETERNAL life and nor can they point to some conditional state of "temporary / eternal salvation."

Notice, when Jesus said, "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" - don't ya think, if the false teaching were true, that Jesus would have added the all-important contingent qualifier - as in, "whoever CONTINUES to believe..." And this is especially true because Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, whom He addressed as being "Israel's teacher,” remarking, “Don't you understand these things?" So, as Jesus was explaining THE key point about the spiritual necessity to believe in Him, and as He was speaking to an important spiritual "teacher" and leader in Israel, don't you think that just maybe He would have mentioned this salvation He spoke of was both potentially temporary AND thus contingent? If ever there was an important teaching moment that an important nuance was being ignored, this would have been it. Same thing with the Apostle Paul - he not only never questions whether he would remain "true to the end," but he also expresses confidence that the salvation of the believers he addressed would be maintained by JESUS - which is the ONLY reason Paul would have been able to have such confidence in his or anyone's salvation!

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:09 pm I cannot imagine how miserable life must be for a Christian who thinks he can lose salvation. Always having to make sure he doesn’t do something wrong that would throw him into hell. It’s such an unnecessary weight to be placed on himself.

I thank God that Jesus Christ paid the price for my salvation, and that all I had to do was trust in him for eternal life. I don’t know if I could live with the idea that my eternal destiny is linked to the way I perform, or what I do or don’t do.

So what do you make of the the following:

Revelation 14:9-12 KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

And will you be forgiven for blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Stu wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:43 am So what do you make of the the following:

Revelation 14:9-12 KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The most obvious observation is what I mentioned earlier.
"If someone puts their faith and trust in the beast and worships the beast, that is a pretty good sign that haven't put their faith and trust in Jesus."
So there is no conflict between the symbolic imagery in John's vision and the explicit statement of Jesus
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

The primary error in your argument is you are giving a flawed human interpretation of a symbolic vision priority over an explicit statement of Jesus.
If you take time to watch Sproul's lecture on "The Beast"
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR12QsI ... s&index=10)
You will find out who the "Beast" was and when he lived.

As we've discussed many times before... in the non-symbolic introduction to his book, John identifies when the events of his vision would take place.
Rev 1:1-3
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, everything that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads, and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

So not only does your interpretation of Rev 14:9-12 directly contradict the explicit teaching of Jesus in John 3:16, It also directly contradicts what John says about the timing of his prophetic vision in the first three verses of the book (Rev 1:1-3).

And will you be forgiven for blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Here is a link you might find helpful
What is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?
https://carm.org/about-the-holy-spirit/ ... ly-spirit/

Here is a short quote that is relevant to this conversation

Can a Believer Commit the Unforgivable Sin?
No. A believer cannot commit the unforgivable sin. How can someone who has been born again (John 3:7), made a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17), and received eternal life (John 10:27-28) actually commit the unforgivable sin? He cannot. Jesus Himself said that we have eternal life, not conditional life: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand” (John 10:27-28).

Stu wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:43 am

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:09 pm I cannot imagine how miserable life must be for a Christian who thinks he can lose salvation. Always having to make sure he doesn’t do something wrong that would throw him into hell. It’s such an unnecessary weight to be placed on himself.

I thank God that Jesus Christ paid the price for my salvation, and that all I had to do was trust in him for eternal life. I don’t know if I could live with the idea that my eternal destiny is linked to the way I perform, or what I do or don’t do.

So what do you make of the the following:

Revelation 14:9-12 KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

And will you be forgiven for blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Stu,

For the sake of argument, even if we assume the mark of the beast is a future event, we are bought, paid for, and sealed in Christ for eternity. I don’t worry about anything or anyone who says I’ll lose my salvation. I trust in Christ, and trust in God's promise.

RickD wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:13 pm

Stu wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:43 am

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:09 pm I cannot imagine how miserable life must be for a Christian who thinks he can lose salvation. Always having to make sure he doesn’t do something wrong that would throw him into hell. It’s such an unnecessary weight to be placed on himself.

I thank God that Jesus Christ paid the price for my salvation, and that all I had to do was trust in him for eternal life. I don’t know if I could live with the idea that my eternal destiny is linked to the way I perform, or what I do or don’t do.

So what do you make of the the following:

Revelation 14:9-12 KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

And will you be forgiven for blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Stu,

For the sake of argument, even if we assume the mark of the beast is a future event, we are bought, paid for, and sealed in Christ for eternity. I don’t worry about anything or anyone who says I’ll lose my salvation. I trust in Christ, and trust in God's promise.

You're avoiding my questions and what the Bible says in Revelation.

What do you make of Revelation 14:9-12 when it says if you take the mark, worship the beast or his image you will not go to heaven. You can't just ignore that text. It says if ANY man, not just unbelievers. Any man.

Stu wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:59 am

RickD wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:13 pm

Stu wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:43 am

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:09 pm I cannot imagine how miserable life must be for a Christian who thinks he can lose salvation. Always having to make sure he doesn’t do something wrong that would throw him into hell. It’s such an unnecessary weight to be placed on himself.

I thank God that Jesus Christ paid the price for my salvation, and that all I had to do was trust in him for eternal life. I don’t know if I could live with the idea that my eternal destiny is linked to the way I perform, or what I do or don’t do.

So what do you make of the the following:

Revelation 14:9-12 KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

And will you be forgiven for blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Stu,

For the sake of argument, even if we assume the mark of the beast is a future event, we are bought, paid for, and sealed in Christ for eternity. I don’t worry about anything or anyone who says I’ll lose my salvation. I trust in Christ, and trust in God's promise.

You're avoiding my questions and what the Bible says in Revelation.

What do you make of Revelation 14:9-12 when it says if you take the mark, worship the beast or his image you will not go to heaven. You can't just ignore that text. It says if ANY man, not just unbelievers. Any man.

In John's vision, "worshipping the Beast" is an indicator that a person has chosen to trust in and worship the Beast rather than Jesus.

So yes... any man (or woman for that matter) who does not put their faith and trust in Jesus is condemned.
Just like Jesus says in John 3:18

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

The people who "worship the Beast" in Rev 14 are condemned because "they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

Stu wrote:
You're avoiding my questions and what the Bible says in Revelation.

What do you make of Revelation 14:9-12 when it says if you take the mark, worship the beast or his image you will not go to heaven. You can't just ignore that text. It says if ANY man, not just unbelievers. Any man.

I take the text for what is actually says. If this happens to be a future event, then it’s not good for anyone who takes the mark. But those who have trusted Christ, have His mark. And God will not let those who trust in Christ, perish. Period.

Stu: if you take the mark, worship the beast or his image you will not go to heaven.

Yes. And notice that if one has done any one of these things that the sentence is not TEMPORARY, but final.

Rick: But those who have trusted Christ, have His mark.

And the contrast with those with the mark of the beat is, as Rick notes, the mark of Christ - which is the indwelling of every believer with the Holy Spirit - of which is, likewise, PERMANENT! One is marked for destruction and the other marked for eternal life - an eternity that Scripture tells us, for those who have placed their faith and commitment to Christ, begins ON EARTH!

The Apostle Peter said: "His (Jesus Christ's) divine power has given us EVERYTHING we need for life and Godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by His own glory and goodness." And that equipping of believers with "everything" includes the ability to continue on in our faith in Christ - and NOT per our own efforts (lest any man boast!). So many direct verses show how “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord WILL be saved." (Romans 10:13) - and in so many verses, there is NO qualifying condition added - because there ISN'T one!