Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:42 am

Many atheists seem to think that it's clever to ask a theist - "Well, then, WHO made God?" Because they think even an existing God would needs a source that created Him. And interestingly, many of them at least recognize the fact that SOMETHING must be eternal, as logically, nothing would exist.

Here ( https://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/Issues ... o-Made-God) we see some explanations why there are false assumptions behind the question, as well as answers to why God MUST exist!

Kenny: If a source is not required of God, it isn’t much of a leap for someone to assume it isn’t required for the Universe.

Philip wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:51 pm Kenny! Where have you been for so long? Healthy, I hope!

Philip wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:54 pm

Kenny: If a source is not required of God, it isn’t much of a leap for someone to assume it isn’t required for the Universe.

Let's put aside, for the moment, the question of God. But anything that exists that had no source MUST be eternal, right? I mean, it's either one or the other, correct?

Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:28 pm That response is probably a retort of the claim that everything requires a source.
If a source is not required of God, it isn’t much of a leap for someone to assume it isn’t required for the Universe.

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:03 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:28 pm That response is probably a retort of the claim that everything requires a source.
If a source is not required of God, it isn’t much of a leap for someone to assume it isn’t required for the Universe.

Some thoughts...

A source is required for the universe because science tells us that our space/time continuum and the laws that govern our universe began around 14 billion years ago.

Scientific evidence for the beginning of our universe is a very compelling evidence for the existence of a causal agent of some sort for the universe.
The science around the Big Bang points to some key attributes about the causal agent for the universe.
- Since the causal agent created time itself, that indicates the causal agent acts outside of time.
- Since the causal agent created the physical laws of nature, that indicates the causal agent acts outside of the laws of nature of our universe.
- The complexity and fine tuning of the universe as well as the physical laws that govern our universe speak to the vast intelligence of the causal agent of our universe.

in a nutshell...
A source is required for the universe because science tells us when it began.
A source is not required for God because the causal agent for our universe acts outside of space, time, and the laws of nature.

Kenny wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:08 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:03 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:28 pm That response is probably a retort of the claim that everything requires a source.
If a source is not required of God, it isn’t much of a leap for someone to assume it isn’t required for the Universe.

Some thoughts...

A source is required for the universe because science tells us that our space/time continuum and the laws that govern our universe began around 14 billion years ago.

Scientific evidence for the beginning of our universe is a very compelling evidence for the existence of a causal agent of some sort for the universe.
The science around the Big Bang points to some key attributes about the causal agent for the universe.
- Since the causal agent created time itself, that indicates the causal agent acts outside of time.
- Since the causal agent created the physical laws of nature, that indicates the causal agent acts outside of the laws of nature of our universe.
- The complexity and fine tuning of the universe as well as the physical laws that govern our universe speak to the vast intelligence of the causal agent of our universe.

in a nutshell...
A source is required for the universe because science tells us when it began.
A source is not required for God because the causal agent for our universe acts outside of space, time, and the laws of nature.

The space/time continuum of 14 billion years ago that you speak of is when the singularity began to expand; known as the Big Bang right? By definition Universe means all that exists. Going by that definition, the Singularity was the Universe during that time.

Science does not claim the Universe began to exist 14 billion years ago, they claim the Universe as we know it began to exist 14 billion years ago.

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:38 pm

Kenny wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:08 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:03 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:28 pm That response is probably a retort of the claim that everything requires a source.
If a source is not required of God, it isn’t much of a leap for someone to assume it isn’t required for the Universe.

Some thoughts...

A source is required for the universe because science tells us that our space/time continuum and the laws that govern our universe began around 14 billion years ago.

Scientific evidence for the beginning of our universe is a very compelling evidence for the existence of a causal agent of some sort for the universe.
The science around the Big Bang points to some key attributes about the causal agent for the universe.
- Since the causal agent created time itself, that indicates the causal agent acts outside of time.
- Since the causal agent created the physical laws of nature, that indicates the causal agent acts outside of the laws of nature of our universe.
- The complexity and fine tuning of the universe as well as the physical laws that govern our universe speak to the vast intelligence of the causal agent of our universe.

in a nutshell...
A source is required for the universe because science tells us when it began.
A source is not required for God because the causal agent for our universe acts outside of space, time, and the laws of nature.

The space/time continuum of 14 billion years ago that you speak of is when the singularity began to expand; known as the Big Bang right? By definition Universe means all that exists. Going by that definition, the Singularity was the Universe during that time.

Not really...

The Singularity from which the universe proceeded was infinitely small (ie a volume of zero).
So the singularity did not contain the universe.

Based on current scientific theory regarding the singularity,
The singularity marks the beginning of the matter and energy of the universe.
The singularity marks the beginning of space and time.
The singularity marks the beginning of the laws that govern our universe.

Science does not claim the Universe began to exist 14 billion years ago, they claim the Universe as we know it began to exist 14 billion years ago.

I don't follow you...

The Universe we exist in is the "Universe we know".
You correctly state that the "Universe we know" began to exist around 14 billion years ago.
So whatever caused the Universe that we live in to "begin to exist" operates outside the confines of the Universe that we live in.

Which means that causal agent operates outside the space of the universe that we live in.
It operates outside of the time of the universe that we live in.
It operates outside of the matter that makes up the universe that we live in.
And it operates outside the physical laws that govern the universe that we live in.

Here's a short video that discusses how the Big Bang Theory points to a finite beginning point for our universe.
Big Bang: Something from Nothing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m82PmE6oASo

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:38 pmI don't follow you...

The Universe we exist in is the "Universe we know".
You correctly state that the "Universe we know" began to exist around 14 billion years ago.
So whatever caused the Universe that we live in to "begin to exist" operates outside the confines of the Universe that we live in.

Which means that causal agent operates outside the space of the universe that we live in.
It operates outside of the time of the universe that we live in.
It operates outside of the matter that makes up the universe that we live in.
And it operates outside the physical laws that govern the universe that we live in.

Kenny wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:13 pm (under Misconceptions)
One of the common misconceptions about the Big Bang model is that it fully explains the origin of the universe. However, the Big Bang model does not describe how energy, time, and space were caused, but rather it describes the emergence of the present universe from an ultra-dense and high-temperature initial state

You are trying to explain the origin of the Universe; the Big Bang does not explain that. Now I’m sure there are a lot of people (even scientists) who go around making calculated guesses about this or that, but that’s not science, those are just guesses. As far as I know, there is no scientific theory that speaks of the size of the singularity nor the origin of it.

DBowling wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:57 pm As you point out scientists do not know HOW the universe began, but the Bing Bang theory does indicate WHEN the universe began.

So, do you agree or disagree with the following statements about the Big Bang theory?
The Big Bang theory describes WHEN the matter and energy in our universe began
The Big Bang theory describes WHEN our space/time continuum began
The Big Bang theory describes WHEN the physical laws that govern our universe began

Kenny wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 9:25 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:57 pm As you point out scientists do not know HOW the universe began, but the Bing Bang theory does indicate WHEN the universe began.

So, do you agree or disagree with the following statements about the Big Bang theory?
The Big Bang theory describes WHEN the matter and energy in our universe began
The Big Bang theory describes WHEN our space/time continuum began
The Big Bang theory describes WHEN the physical laws that govern our universe began

The Big Bang theory does not explain WHEN matter and energy of our Universe (Singularity) began.

The Singularity already exist in the theory and as pointed out before, it only explains how the Universe went from the singularity to what we know of it now. As far as time/space continuum or the laws of physics, I don't know if those began with the big bang or not.

the theory describes an increasingly concentrated cosmos preceded by a singularity in which space and time lose meaning