Evidence for God from Science

Here is a good discussion with NT Wright concerning the Christian response to the Coronavirus pandemic.

NT WRIGHT: Coronavirus Part of End Times Prophecy? God's Grief & Shock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J384Gx9nbkw

In this video, theologian Curtis Chang explores the question...

Is the COVID vaccine the “Mark of the Beast”?
https://www.christiansandthevaccine.com/episodes/04

I think we can all agree that the Covid-19 vaccines are not the mark of the beast.

It is part of the pestilences spoke of in the Bible though during the end times. And it is the precursor to the mark of the beast. To acclimatise the people to a vaccine, vaccine passports, limiting freedoms, snitching on neighbours, crack down by police, etc, etc.

Stu: It is part of the pestilences spoke of in the Bible though during the end times.

The reality is that ALL pestilences since Revelation was written are part of the "End Times" - with the problem being, we cannot know precisely when we're truly near the very end - at least at the present, because we don't have enough info - and God says we WON'T know the time but are to be SPIRITUALLY prepared. Some are so obsessed with this issue to the point that they mentally dwell in a very negative view of Christian life - yes in a dark, often difficult world - yet one that is meant to be lived in victoriously and optimistically and prayerful in whatever timing we might live in in the final portion of the Church era. God is working and changing lives. So many Christians sound so pessimistic as if we are defeated and there is nothing but doom and gloom ahead. That's a terrible way to view the world - at least our world and God's control over it, because there are many opportunities ahead, many will yet come to Christ, and many victories are to be had by God's people!

We are to be prepared for Christ to return - but UNTIL He does, in Philippians 4, the Apostle Paul gives us some very good instructions as to what our outlook should be:

4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness[d] be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand; 6 do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 What you have learned[e] and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you. (Note how Philippians 2:1-2 echoes this!)

And none of Paul's advice in this means we are to be naive or ignorant of world events. It just means we need to live in joy and peace NOW, as God provides it. We live in the world but are not OF it! And we need to start looking at the unsaved and people living unGodly lives with compassion and prayerfulness that they will eventually know and receive Christ as God so desires for them. And NOT as if they are all the enemy we must despise. People always cynically focusing on the "gloom to come" will never live mentally peaceful or happy lives, because they get sucked into the vortex of viewing everything as pointless and hopeless - which, btw, is precisely how the devil and his co-conspirators desire for us to.

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:57 am

Stu: It is part of the pestilences spoke of in the Bible though during the end times.

The reality is that ALL pestilences since Revelation was written are part of the "End Times" - with the problem being, we cannot know precisely when we're truly near the very end - at least at the present, because we don't have enough info - and God says we WON'T know the time but are to be SPIRITUALLY prepared. Some are so obsessed with this issue to the point that they mentally dwell in a very negative view of Christian life - yes in a dark, often difficult world - yet one that is meant to be lived in victoriously and optimistically and prayerful in whatever timing we might live in in the final portion of the Church era. God is working and changing lives. So many Christians sound so pessimistic as if we are defeated and there is nothing but doom and gloom ahead. That's a terrible way to view the world - at least our world and God's control over it, because there are many opportunities ahead, many will yet come to Christ, and many victories are to be had by God's people!

We are to be prepared for Christ to return - but UNTIL He does, in Philippians 4, the Apostle Paul gives us some very good instructions as to what our outlook should be:

4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness[d] be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand; 6 do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 What you have learned[e] and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you. (Note how Philippians 2:1-2 echoes this!)

And none of Paul's advice in this means we are to be naive or ignorant of world events. It just means we need to live in joy and peace NOW, as God provides it. We live in the world but are not OF it! And we need to start looking at the unsaved and people living unGodly lives with compassion and prayerfulness that they will eventually know and receive Christ as God so desires for them. And NOT as if they are all the enemy we must despise. People always cynically focusing on the "gloom to come" will never live mentally peaceful or happy lives, because they get sucked into the vortex of viewing everything as pointless and hopeless - which, btw, is precisely how the devil and his co-conspirators desire for us to.

Yes, but you need to be prepared for what is to come. Just like with Joseph, God gave Joseph warnings to prepare. He harvested the wheat, not God. God has given us the New Testament and Daniel's prophecy and others as our warning. We must prepare. Am I saying God will not help or protect some Christians during the end times. No. But He also won't protect everyone, there will be MANY martyrs as the Bible says.

I have heard Christians say that if there is no rapture and God makes my daughter got through the tribulation then I will no longer be a Christian. It is notions like this that are ridiculous. The church has become soft and cowardly. I welcome the tribulation as it gives me a chance to save souls more than any other time in history.

We need to know those times.

Jesus gives us many clues on when the end times will be. We won't know the time of Jesus' return, yes, that will be unknown, but the OT prophecies, Jesus, Paul and Jesus again through John in Revelation give us plenty of clues as to the season of the end times.

Otherwise what was the point of saying all the things He did if it was useless information to us. Nothing in the Bible is useless especially the red letter parts.

The mark of the beast, 666.
You won't be able to sell or buy without it.
The Anti-Christ will declare himself God and stop sacrifices.
He will require that you worship him and his image (and those who do will go to hell).
A war that will kill a third of mankind.

The list goes on and on.

We are to be watchmen on the wall for our brethren and those who know no better.

If the Covid-19 plandemic is not the precursor working toward the mark of the beast and end times then I and many others have been fooled.

IMO this is all acclimatising the world for future vaccines, vaccine passports (eventual mark of the beast), government crackdowns, the removal of liberty and so on.

Word is that the next release could be a MERS variant with a 30% death rate or an Ebola variant.

I don't live in fear, despite having my ear to the ground and keeping a close eye on world events, rather I feel that I am prepared for whatever may come, and I am prepared (prepping) for the people in my life that aren't Christians and who will look to those who seem to not be disturbed by what is unfolding. The Bible says men's hearts will fail them for fear given what is coming, we need to be a light to such people and show them the true light, Jesus, and how He can save them and it is thanks to Him and his word that we have prepared for these events.

Obviously you can never truly prepare one's self for war and everything that is to come during the tribulation but you can certainly do your best to prepare both spiritually and in the physical world with water, food, guns, etc.

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:24 am Jesus gives us many clues on when the end times will be. We won't know the time of Jesus' return, yes, that will be unknown, but the OT prophecies, Jesus, Paul and Jesus again through John in Revelation give us plenty of clues as to the season of the end times.

Jesus and John gave us more than clues, they gave us some pretty explicit statements regarding when the Great Tribulation would take place.

Here's what Jesus says about when the Great Tribulation (Mat 24:15-21) would occur
Mat 24:34

Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Here's what John says about when the events in his vision would take place.
Rev 1:1-3

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

If a person's interpretation of the imagery of John's vision directly contradicts the explicit statements of Jesus and John about when these events would take place, that does not mean Jesus and John were in error.
It means that particular interpretation of the symbolic imagery in Revelation is in error.

LOOK at the beginning of Revelation - it is addressed to seven churches:

"Greeting to the Seven Churches

4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia:"

Churches receiving criticism and warnings THAT NO LONGER EXIST!!! https://www.mclaurinbaptist.org/blog-19 ... evelation/ - which is an enormous problem for those applying the specifics of the tribulation mentioned to our time / future. And as those events were to happen soon AND that those churches no longer exist, then the events to happen "soon" have already happened. Ah, but each church TYPE certainly DOES exist today. ALSO, throughout Scripture, there are parallel events. So, as the seven church TYPES do still exist, it is entirely possible that some great persecution of the Church will happen (and is happening, to varying extents) in our future - how long away, it's impossible to say.

So, while we may dismiss these warnings as ONLY for those of that time, I don't think we can. But as for a supposed Rapture of the Church before the very end - well, it is quite likely that what we're all really waiting on is for Christ to return, and THEN, that's it! But meanwhile, we see Christians obsessed with supposed specific undertandings of some future tribulation. And I would ask them, if we're supposed to be more than spiritually prepared, what do they think we're to do? Flee? And to WHERE? Where would be safe? HOW? Modern warfare would mean we stuck or a target wherever we might run, with no place truly safe. Is there some impenetrable fortress we're to flee to? Have any of you begun to stockpile food? Weapon's caches, etc? I seriously doubt it!

Tell me of a safe place or country. And if your location isn't safe, then what of your weapons and food caches, etc., etc. Now, in John's first century time, such advice could have been implemented, to varying extents. But I say, for us - we just need to be prepared for Jesus to return and SPIRITUALLY so! And meanwhile, to not obsess over the timing and events of things we presently cannot know about our future or God's timing. Which I mostly see going on as people obsessed with doom, gloom and having us fear something we can do little about - least not in tangible, practical ways. But spiritually, of course! But God WILL guide His people into whatever future He has planned for us - He will NOT abandon us - even in what He may have us and His Church go through. And most of these people going on about "being prepared," number one, AREN"T remotely prepared themselves, and secondly, have no realistic advice for what that would mean that goes beyond spiritual preparation.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:08 pm LOOK at the beginning of Revelation - it is addressed to seven churches:

"Greeting to the Seven Churches

4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia:"

Churches receiving criticism and warnings THAT NO LONGER EXIST!!! https://www.mclaurinbaptist.org/blog-19 ... evelation/ - which is an enormous problem for those applying the specifics of the tribulation mentioned to our time / future. And as those events were to happen soon AND that those churches no longer exist, then the events to happen "soon" have already happened. Ah, but each church TYPE certainly DOES exist today. ALSO, throughout Scripture, there are parallel events. So, as the seven church TYPES do still exist, it is entirely possible that some great persecution of the Church will happen (and is happening, to varying extents) in our future - how long away, it's impossible to say.

So, while we may dismiss these warnings as ONLY for those of that time, I don't think we can.

I don't know if you had a chance to watch the Curtis Chang video that I posted earlier in this thread.
He uses an excellent metaphor of reading a prophetic passage as a "map" vs reading it as a "compass".
(see time stamp 10:20 - 14:00)

Revelation 13 was meant to be read as a "map' by its first century audience with direct correlations between first century events and the imagery in John's vision.
However those specific first century events can can have general applications to all Christians of all times who can use those very same passages as a "compass".
In time stamp 10:20 - 14:00 Curtis provides specific examples of how Rev 13 was a "map" for its first century audience, and how that very same passage can be used as a compass by all Christians of all times.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:08 pm LOOK at the beginning of Revelation - it is addressed to seven churches:

"Greeting to the Seven Churches

4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia:"

Churches receiving criticism and warnings THAT NO LONGER EXIST!!! https://www.mclaurinbaptist.org/blog-19 ... evelation/ - which is an enormous problem for those applying the specifics of the tribulation mentioned to our time / future. And as those events were to happen soon AND that those churches no longer exist, then the events to happen "soon" have already happened. Ah, but each church TYPE certainly DOES exist today. ALSO, throughout Scripture, there are parallel events. So, as the seven church TYPES do still exist, it is entirely possible that some great persecution of the Church will happen (and is happening, to varying extents) in our future - how long away, it's impossible to say.

Just because John addresses those churches doesn't mean the message isn't for every Christian?
Jesus said that He came to save the Jews yet His message is for all mankind.

So, while we may dismiss these warnings as ONLY for those of that time, I don't think we can. But as for a supposed Rapture of the Church before the very end - well, it is quite likely that what we're all really waiting on is for Christ to return, and THEN, that's it! But meanwhile, we see Christians obsessed with supposed specific undertandings of some future tribulation. And I would ask them, if we're supposed to be more than spiritually prepared, what do they think we're to do? Flee? And to WHERE? Where would be safe? HOW? Modern warfare would mean we stuck or a target wherever we might run, with no place truly safe. Is there some impenetrable fortress we're to flee to? Have any of you begun to stockpile food? Weapon's caches, etc? I seriously doubt it!

Tell me of a safe place or country. And if your location isn't safe, then what of your weapons and food caches, etc., etc. Now, in John's first century time, such advice could have been implemented, to varying extents. But I say, for us - we just need to be prepared for Jesus to return and SPIRITUALLY so! And meanwhile, to not obsess over the timing and events of things we presently cannot know about our future or God's timing. Which I mostly see going on as people obsessed with doom, gloom and having us fear something we can do little about - least not in tangible, practical ways. But spiritually, of course! But God WILL guide His people into whatever future He has planned for us - He will NOT abandon us - even in what He may have us and His Church go through. And most of these people going on about "being prepared," number one, AREN"T remotely prepared themselves, and secondly, have no realistic advice for what that would mean that goes beyond spiritual preparation.

I would rather be prepped with water, food and guns and not need it than be unprepped and have need of water, food and protection and not have it.

Do you know what it is like to starve? People have eaten their babies and children in the past from hunger in the past.

What of water, how long can you live without it? Jesus said it will be a time of war like no other, how will you protect your loved ones or those who shelter with you without weapons?

So, Stu, how have you prepared yourself?

Are you a Prepper? https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian- ... pping.html

Philip wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:06 pm how have you prepared yourself?

Here is a nice article on...
7 WAYS TO PREPARE FOR JESUS’ RETURN (MARK 13:24-37)
https://goexplorethebible.com/blog/adul ... k-1324-37/

1. LIVE IN THE LIGHT OF HIS FIRST COMING.
2. BE DISCERNING.
3. ACCEPT THE UNCERTAINTIES.
4. DON’T LOSE HOPE.
5. ENCOURAGE ONE ANOTHER.
6. LIVE AS IF TODAY WAS THE DAY.
7. KEEP ON DOING THE WORK JESUS LEFT US TO DO.

Philip wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:06 pm So, Stu, how have you prepared yourself?

Are you a Prepper? https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian- ... pping.html

All the usual things preppers do, like Noah and Joseph done, only for today. The logical stuff, to save not only lives but souls to.

Stu: All the usual things preppers do, like Noah and Joseph done, only for today. The logical stuff, to save not only lives but souls to.

I don't understand - like WHAT, exactly? What "logical stuff." Because you seem obsessed that you and others are prepared, per whatever warnings - so, I'm just curious as to precisely what kind of preparations you've made. Have you stored food, weapons, have a safe place planned - any of that survival-type stuff?