Evidence for God from Science

my jw friend firmly believes that Jesus was the angel Michael before coming to earth to save us. he doesn't believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. i've almost given up on convincing him of that. i throw a passage at him that confirms it, and he throws one back that seems to disconfirm it.

but, is there anything i can show this guy to knock this idea out of his head!...that Jesus was an angel created by God!

How about colossians 1:16 -19

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell

hope this helps
SssnakeBite

The new testament is irrelevant as far as the jews are concerned.

JW=Jehovas Witness

Bleh. No idea how i read jews.

thanks so much for trying to help me out, but, anything more concrete? he's really convinced.

You can't use logic t convince somebody he is wrong when his opinion was not arrived at logically to begin with.

Possibly discuss why Micheal (Explained in Jude 1) called upon the Lord to rebuke the devil, but in the dessert (Matthew 4) Jesus did it in his own authority, saying "Away from me, Satan"...

Could also ask why all the other prophets state how it is written, or "the Lord says" but yet Jesus continually exclaims "truly, I say to you".. Again, He does these on his own authority.

Beyond that, I thought I made I pretty good case in the Dinner with Jehovah thread: (lengthy)

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

John 1:1-14
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Just read it my friend... "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning."

Clearly, beyond ANY reasonable doubt, Jesus is the Word that became flesh, and Jesus was with God and Jesus WAS God.

Revelation 1:12-17
12I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,”dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp doubleedged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

The First and the Last, the Son of Man, says he was dead. Was the Father ever dead? Nope. Is anyone but God "the first and the last"? Nope.

But just in case you wanted the passage:
Isaiah 44:6
"This is what the LORD says - Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

So how can two beings (The Living One who was dead, and the LORD Almighty) BOTH claim to be the beginning and the end? Doesn't it stand to reason that there's only ONE beginning and end? If the Lord came first, how can the Living One be the beginning? In my mind, the ONLY reasonable explanation is that Jesus and God are one and the same - just like Jesus says quoted earlier.

And finally, aside from all that, I cannot understand how anyone but God himself has the authority to redeem our sins. It's the only way that salvation even makes sense...

One more thing in Matthew people often miss:

Matthew 4:7: Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, `You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"

thanks so much, guys.

Let us know how it goes...

can't break through. he insists that any references that establish Jesus as God mean only that he is like God because he is God's son. and i still can't get how he thinks Jesus is the angel Michael.

i don't like to give up on people, i will keep trying.

You cannot use reason and the Bible against someone who did not use either to get to his beliefs...I'd suggest praying (I'll do it after this, but I'll forget later on). It's kinda the spiritual flamethrower...it can smoke anyone out of anywhere....

Well, the Bible does say that Jesus is the firstborn of creation. I've seen the rebuttal to that on another page of this site, but it is illogical. The rebuttal states that Adam is the firstborn, while Jesus was born thousands of years later. But, that goes against what Jesus Himself stated. He said the He had a prehuman existence. And anyway, it said that He is the firstborn of creation, not the firstborn of men.

As for your quote on Matthew 4:7: Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, `You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"
That was when Satan was tempting Jesus to throw Himself off a building, that if He really was the Son of God, then God would save Him with angels. But Jesus rebuked by saying the above quote. Meaning that you shouldn't test God's by saying that if He loves me, He'll do this. That quote had nothing to do with tempting Jesus, and in thus tempting God. B/c if it did, that would be Jesus casting away Satan, when that was the second temptation, not the third.

As for the John 1:1 quote. Trinitarians also point to John 1:1 in some translations, where “the Word” is spoken of as being “with God” and as being “God.” But other Bible translations say that the Word was “a god” or was “divine,” meaning not necessarily God but a powerful one. Furthermore, that Bible verse says that “the Word” was “with” God. That would reasonably exclude him from being that same God. And no matter what is concluded about “the Word,” the fact is that only two persons are mentioned at John 1:1, not three. Over and over again, all texts used to try to support the Trinity doctrine utterly fail to do so when examined honestly.

"I am"
As for John 8:58 “Before Abraham ever was, I Am.”
Was Jesus there teaching, as Trinitarians assert, that he was known by the title “I Am”? And, as they claim, does this mean that he was Jehovah of the Hebrew Scriptures, since the King James Version at Exodus 3:14 states: “God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM”?

At Exodus 3:14 (KJ) the phrase “I AM” is used as a title for God to indicate that he really existed and would do what he promised. The Pentateuch and Haftorahs, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz, says of the phrase: “To the Israelites in bondage, the meaning would be, 'Although He has not yet displayed His power towards you, He will do so; He is eternal and will certainly redeem you.' Most moderns follow Rashi [a French Bible and Talmud commentator] in rendering [Exodus 3:14] 'I will be what I will be.'”

The expression at John 8:58 is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or a title but as a means of explaining his prehuman existence. Hence, note how some other Bible versions render John 8:58:

1869: “From before Abraham was, I have been.” The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.

1935: “I existed before Abraham was born!” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

1965: “Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am.” Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.

1981: “I was alive before Abraham was born!” The Simple English Bible.

1984: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

Thus, the real thought of the Greek used here is that God's created “firstborn,” Jesus, had existed long before Abraham was born.—Colossians 1:15; Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30; Revelation 3:14.

Again, the context shows this to be the correct understanding. This time the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to “have seen Abraham” although, as they said, he was not yet 50 years old. (Verse 57) Jesus' natural response was to tell the truth about his age. So he naturally told them that he “was alive before Abraham was born!”—The Simple English Bible.




As for your logic of why did Micheal call upon the lord to rebuke Satan in Jude, but not in Matthew 4. Your quote on "Away from me Satan..." I can't find anywhere in Matthew 4. The Matthew 4 that I read has Satan tempting Jesus 3 times by telling Him to do things which he claims aren't sins, and in each of those 3 times Jesus quotes Deuternomy to say that it is a sin. Then, after attempting to tempt Jesus, Satan gives up and leaves on his own. Not once did Jesus order Satan to leave in Matthew 4.

Also, the Holy Spirit isn't described as a seperate person anywhere in the Bible. It is interesting that the Holy Spirit is the one "person" Trinitarians are most vague about. The Holy Spirit is God's active force, not a person. If the Holy Spirit was a person, how can people be filled with it? Mt 3:16; Joh 20:22; Acts 2:4, 17, 33 It's not a person in heaven with God and Christ. Ac 7:55, 56; Re 7:10 It is directed by God to acomplish purposes. Ps 104:30; 1 Co 12:4-11 Those serving God are guided by it. 1 Co 2:12, 13; Ga 5:16

Also, you will not find one part in the Bible in which the Trinity is explained in full detail, nor did the Apostles teach this. But, you say it is implied? Why would the Bible simply imply one of the most important things-what God is? Why didn't Jesus explain this vital information to the apostles so that they could explain it to others? The Bible is perfectly clear on all other teachings, why not this one? If the Trinity is true, I don't think God would've left such an important teaching for imperfect humans to figure out, but rather, would've explained it clearly in His inspired word. Also, why would God keep the secret from all those in the OT? Were they just unworthy to know what the God they loved and worshipped was made of?

Which other bible translations? Would they be similar to the egyptian burial rites the mormons claimed to be the word of God?

All I see is excuses and interpretations that require a great deal of imagination to work. As for Jesus existing before Abraham, no Christian doubts that. We believe He has always existed.