Evidence for God from Science

This thread is formed to discuss the salvation of those who either have never known Jesus and his message (like, maybe Native American's 1000 years back) and also the salvation of those who reject that Jesus is saviour even after knowing about that message, yet still call upon the name of the Lord (Namely, the Jews).

Colors and I started discussing this in the Discover Islam thread with the following dialogue:

Felgar wrote:But there is no question that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all call the very same entity Lord. We all claim that the God of Abraham is God. Of course where we differ is on the nature of that God, and on the divinity and purpose of Jesus.

colors wrote:true,but since Jesus is God in the flesh, wouldn't denying him be denying God? you can believe in God, but denying his nature is not following him/worshipping him.

Felgar wrote:Well let's just break this wide open then; this question is at the heart of whether or not Jews are saved. Clearly they deny Jesus, yet they remain God's chosen people. I'm not 100% decided either way if they are saved or not. What is your interpretation of Romans 10:11-13?

colors wrote:Jesus is Lord. without him there is no salvation. but, of course many Jews will be saved. there are messianic jews. also, some which cannot be faulted for their beliefs...only God truly knows what's in everyone's hearts.

it might be cool to start a thread just for this discussion!

I have actually been in this discussion before and I think I can start off with a fairly good summary... I'll fetch it and post back soon.

Felgar wrote:This thread is formed to discuss the salvation of those who either have never known Jesus and his message (like, maybe Native American's 1000 years back) and also the salvation of those who reject that Jesus is saviour even after knowing about that message, yet still call upon the name of the Lord (Namely, the Jews).

Colors and I started discussing this in the Discover Islam thread with the following dialogue:

Felgar wrote:But there is no question that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all call the very same entity Lord. We all claim that the God of Abraham is God. Of course where we differ is on the nature of that God, and on the divinity and purpose of Jesus.

colors wrote:true,but since Jesus is God in the flesh, wouldn't denying him be denying God? you can believe in God, but denying his nature is not following him/worshipping him.

Felgar wrote:Well let's just break this wide open then; this question is at the heart of whether or not Jews are saved. Clearly they deny Jesus, yet they remain God's chosen people. I'm not 100% decided either way if they are saved or not. What is your interpretation of Romans 10:11-13?

colors wrote:Jesus is Lord. without him there is no salvation. but, of course many Jews will be saved. there are messianic jews. also, some which cannot be faulted for their beliefs...only God truly knows what's in everyone's hearts.

it might be cool to start a thread just for this discussion!

I have actually been in this discussion before and I think I can start off with a fairly good summary... I'll fetch it and post back soon.

Romans 11:25-27

This is part of a discussion, so please tolerate the obvious reference to the person I was talking to.

I should start by asserting that, though God himself never changed, I believe that our relationship with Him has changed throughout history. Adam and Eve Pre-Fall had oen type of relationship, then fall->Moses, then Moses->Jesus, then Jesus->His Return... All of those periods of time defined a different relationship between God and man. The conclusion then, is that what was required of Adam and then of Abraham was different than what is required of us (to have a relationship with God). But the real question here is whether the Jews are yet saved today, despite their reluctance to understand that Jesus is Saviour.

A few other things to note first... We know that even through the Old Testament, the people were saved by Faith and not works. (Romans 4:13 - It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.) So through his Faith, Abraham was righteous in the eyes of God. I also like the concept that Jesus actually saved all those who come to God through Him by Faith — for no man comes to the Father but through Him. Jesus didn't say that as of now, no man comes. But rather, ALL men come through Him. Given the timeless nature of God, is it a reasonable conclusion that Jesus has saved every man throughout history? If so that would include the current Jewish population as well. (Romans 10:12 - For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[Joel 2:32])

So it would seem that both Christians and Jews come to the Father through Jesus by Faith, even though the Jews do not yet recognize Jesus as their Saviour. Also interesting is that Jesus will be their Saviour at the time of the second coming, so perhaps through that action Jesus saves all Jews throughout history. Further to that: Romans 11:25-32 are entitled (in the NIV) as “All Isreal Will Be Saved”. And from those verses: (25-32 - And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.) Interesting, that the Jews receive mercy because of God's mercy for us — so they are also saved through Jesus whom was sent because of God's mercy for the Gentiles. And like the verse says, All Isreal will be saved. There is no distinction between who lived before and after any given time period — and it's reasonable to conclude that any Jewish believer in God is rightly part of Isreal. So they reject the Gospel (are enemies on our account) yet they are clearly saved?

So there it is; I'm starting to think that it is certainly possible for the Jewish people to be saved even today, though they currently deny Jesus as Saviour. Perhaps this can happen because once the second coming is fulfilled they recognize Jesus as Saviour, and Jesus' salvation would appear to transcend time and would therefore justify all those Jews who came before. (As an aside, let me be clear that the Law saves no one, Faith in God is what saves. I think the Jewish Law is possibly like our works in teaching the Gospel. Like our heavenly reward is based upon our service to the Lord through teaching the Gospel, the Jew's service to the Lord is in those Laws.) Ultimately on this whole topic of Jewish salvation I'm not sure, and don't need to be. We know that we're saved by the recognition that the Son of God died for our sins, I guess nothing else really matters.

Oh, and lastly regarding the salvation of people who've never heard of Jesus at all. It would appear that God does not hold us accountable when we could not have known otherwise. (Romans 5:12-13 - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.) With no law given they could not have broken it, so their sin was not taken into account. What seems to have been much more important was their hearts… And that applies to those 'jungle' people I talk about today - or to the Native Americans of a millennia ago. (Romans 1:18-20 - The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.) In other words, everyone truly knows God and His nature, and they will be judged on whether they turn from what they know to be true. I think we already agreed on the people who haven't heard, but I thought it was interesting anyways. Especially the part about there being no violation where there is no law.

Well I guess that's it. Especially regarding the Jewish people I'm not yet 100% convinced, but there's definitely some food for thought there. Just so long as we're not tempted to think that everything leads to God, because that is clearly wrong.

bizzt wrote:Romans 11:25-27

Indeed... I tend to agree. So if EVERYONE agrees, then let's discuss just how a Jew who denies Jesus can come to God through the very one that they deny. I want to give others a chance to respond though, first.

Good Summary! I believe the Jews are generally saved whomever believe in the Saviour (of course not all Jews are saved because some do not believe). About Natives etc does it not say somewhere that we must also look to God in Nature. If Indians only had Nature to see God they might get the second chance because I believe God is the God of Second Chances. Anyways I cannot think of the scripture but will post back later if I find it

bizzt wrote: If Indians only had Nature to see God they might get the second chance because I believe God is the God of Second Chances. Anyways I cannot think of the scripture but will post back later if I find it

Romans 1:20... It's in my long thread, but I do appologize for the somewhat difficult format.

Felgar wrote:

bizzt wrote: If Indians only had Nature to see God they might get the second chance because I believe God is the God of Second Chances. Anyways I cannot think of the scripture but will post back later if I find it

Romans 1:20... It's in my long thread, but I do appologize for the somewhat difficult format.

Thanks and no not at all I just have to look for the Bold parts!!!

17:23
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

17:24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

17:25
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

17:26
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

17:27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

17:29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

17:30
And the times of THIS IGNORANCE GOD WINKED AT; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

17:32
And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

17:33
So Paul departed from among them.

17:34
Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.


To the jews before CHRIST, they are saved due to believing in the promise of the coming Savior. To the Indians and 3rd world countries that never heard CHRIST being preached until now;.......God winked at ignorance and is now calling EVERY man to repent.

so all jews will be saved no matter what?

colors wrote:so all jews will be saved no matter what?

....

-___-

No.

colors wrote:so all jews will be saved no matter what?

No, but I'm saying probably every Jewish person with faith. There are people who call themselves Christians too, yet have no faith and are not saved either.

I just think that Jesus paid the price for everyone's sin (including those who have never heard the name) and so we're left with God's grace being given to any who call upon on the name of the Lord.

Really though, I was almost hoping that someone who disagrees would start posting some scripture that leans it back the other way a little. The problem I have is that my current understanding is extremely close to the notion that all religions lead to God and to salvation, and I would see that as untrue and a pretty big problem.

Felgar wrote:The problem I have is that my current understanding is extremely close to the notion that all religions lead to God and to salvation, and I would see that as untrue and a pretty big problem.

Actually, that's pretty close to the way it actually is, and it makes sense to me. Would you like being thrown in hell just because you never had a chance to know Christ?

"Read Romans 11:17-20. Paul has just said something that seems utterly out of touch with reality. And he knows he needs to address the problem. He has just said in verse 16 that “the branches” are holy. That is, God will take all Israel for himself. All Israel belongs to God. They are holy, set apart for God as his covenant people. But the reality is that many of them are unbelieving and cut off from Christ. They are perishing. Paul said that explicitly in Romans 9:3 and 27. So Paul has to address this and its implications.

So after saying that the branches are holy, he says immediately in verse 17 that some of the branches were broken off: “But if some of the branches were broken off . . .” That's the reality. That's the tragedy—in Paul's day and ours. All Israel (not every individual, but the nation someday when it turns to Christ) is going to be saved, he says in verse 26. But for now, there are broken-off branches. That is, individual Jewish people are not believing in Christ and not connected to the covenant in a saving way. As Romans 9:6 said, “Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel .” Or as Romans 9:8 says, “It is not the children of the flesh who are children of God.” Being a natural, cultivated olive branch does not guarantee that you will be part of the nourishing root of the tree.

So that's the situation: The Messiah Jesus has come. He has preached the kingdom of God to Israel . He has confirmed and fulfilled the promises made to the fathers (Romans 15:8). From now on, to be joined to the tree—the true Israel —and to be joined to Christ by faith, are the same thing. “ Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life” (1 John 5:12 ). That's what Jesus said to the Jewish people. If you have me, you have life. And to the same generation he said, “E veryone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32 -33). In other words, Jesus made himself the way of salvation for the Jews of his day. He was the way to be connected to the root—the life-giving, saving root of Israel . He was the “seed” of Abraham (Galatians 3:16 ) and the saving connection to the covenant made with Abraham. But the reality is: “He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him” (John 1:11 ).

And so they were broken off. They are not saved. They have an outward connection with the covenant but not an inward connection. They are Jewish ethnically, but not truly Jewish spiritually. Remember what Paul said in Romans 2:28 -29, “No one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.” So Paul says in Romans 11:17, “Some of the branches were broken off.” That is the painful reality then and now."

John Piper

I heard this, could someone confirm it? During the 1,000 year reign of Christ, all will be resurrected, and given one last chance. Well, all humans anyway, I think the angels that went bad have sealed thier fate.

voicingmaster wrote:I heard this, could someone confirm it? During the 1,000 year reign of Christ, all will be resurrected, and given one last chance. Well, all humans anyway, I think the angels that went bad have sealed thier fate.

Angels who sin do indeed seal their fate - it's written plainly.

My understanding is that only those dead in Christ rise and are given glorified bodies with which they live on Earth for the 1000 years. The others remain in the afterlife and await judgement. The ones who get a second chance are the ones who survive the tribulation to see the return of Christ, and then turn to Him.

The problem with prophecy is that they all have to be taken as a whole, which means you understand it all, or understand very little. So we sort of have no choice but to rely on the understanding of others, and where do we turn when they disagree?