Evidence for God from Science

I am going to be invited over to a Jehovah Witnesses' house for dinner in the very near future. I stumbled across your website this morning and found the section you had on Christian cults. I haven't gotten the chance to read the entire section on the Witnesses but I will. I'm 20 years old and a soundly saved Christian (by Christ's blood). So, I don't think there's a need to worry too much about me becoming converted, although I've changed about 3 theological stances I've held since visiting your site this morning. I'm more concerned about brining the truth of Christ to this family who has graciously (well, sort of - I know that they really want to impact me for Jehovah) offered to feed me dinner and discuss matters further. I work at IBM in Poughkeepsie, NY and met a Witness here that I've kept in conversation with... So, my question is one of seeking wisdom/advice. Please offer any wisdom from above that the Lord might have given you in the past regarding how to effectively witness to Witnesses. I know that the most significant problem lies in how they view Christ but maybe you've found some venues to be helpful in establishing some truths. I'd like to be able to use their scripture where necessary as I know that the NWT is very different from say my KJV. Appreciate the advice/counsel!

PremoMD, to help you with the dinner party your going to.

1.) God is the Judge, not you.

2.) Shake off any criticism, condemnation and judgement when thinking about other religious groups. If you don't, it will show up and neither party will enjoy each others company.

3.) Be at peace.

4.) If they ask a question about your beliefs, answer it. But Don't ask them any questions about their beliefs.

5.) If they try to preach at you, change the subject, if they don't. Then excuse yourself and leave. There are times when you just have to shake the dust off your shoes and walk away. A very simple thing to do.

God Bless!

Edit:

One thing to remember is for you to treat others as you would want others to treat you. Remember, If person A treats Person B with hate, than Person B should treat person A with kindness. Why? Because you get back what you give, you reap what you sow. It is not up to the individual to give to the person what they should reap, because that person will reap the hate they sowed, and other person will reap the kindness they sowed.

Another is not having a negative opinion, or negative thoughts, on anything that goes on anywhere, but only thoughts of Appreciation and Love for all life on this planet. Just remember, it is God's planet, God's children who dwell on this planet. God is every where, the Angel's are every where.

I hope the dinner goes well, and God bless!

Innocente wrote: 1.) God is the Judge, not you.

Of a truth yes. That's why I like to point to the Bible and say that I'm not the person judging them - God has already judged the matter (point to verse).

Innocente wrote: 2.) Shake off any criticism, condemnation and judgement when thinking about other religious groups. If you don't, it will show up and neither party will enjoy each others company.

This can sometimes be a hard line to walk. Humility is key but I'm also reminded of Luke 11:37-54 where Jesus opening rebukes the Pharisees and lawyers who had invited him to dinner (see vs. 37). Christ certainly had a lot of criticism, condemnation and judgement towards these "keepers of the law". So, I want to be open to such a circumstance if the Lord wills.

Luke 14:26, 27 - "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever does not bear his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple."

Innocente wrote: Another is not having a negative opinion, or negative thoughts, on anything that goes on anywhere, but only thoughts of Appreciation and Love for all life on this planet. Just remember, it is God's planet, God's children who dwell on this planet. God is every where, the Angel's are every where.

Senator Kerry just quoted at the presidential debate last night that "All of us are God's children." I humbly disagree with that statement on the basis of John 8:42-47. Verse 44 says, "You are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." You can check out the rest as I wish not to fill up the entire forum screen but basically Jesus is commenting on how they are not God's children because they don't love Him (see vs. 42).

That's so true in America today. I feel so bad for the presidents as they try to appease the multitudes with programs and promises. If they understood the underlying nature of sin and that those who are not born again (transferring son-ship from the devil to God), they would be able to respond/react with so much more wisdom. President Bush wouldn't have to say "I don't know" to homosexuality as a choice but could boldly explain that men and women drink in iniquity like water (Job 15:16). They are slaves to sin and are in bondage to the lusts thereof. But when one is set free by Jesus Christ (see Isaiah 61:1-3) they are no longer a prisoner of sin. That's really what our nation needs - not freedom from terrorism or taxes or illegal immigrants or health care expenses, but freedom from poverty, spiritually speaking.

Proverbs 11:4 - "Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivers from death."

Kurieuo, I was hoping you might have time to respond to my previous post about Jehovah Witnesses.

Kurieuo, I was hoping you might have time to respond to my previous post about Jehovah Witnesses.

Sure, I'd be happy to. There are several issues you can raise and discuss with them, but if you don't know where to start then they definitely will (they get taught to witness afterall ). I think if this is your first time with JWs then you may have a hard time simply providing reasons for your own position. Perhaps you should not see this dinner as only a way to convert and or challenge their beliefs, but as a way to strengthen your own beliefs. If you aren't familiar with JWs then you may have some very challenging questions coming your way, which once you find answers to (usually back at home ) will strengthen your own beliefs and better equip you for a next time.

In the meantime, I'd recommend equipping yourself as much as you can. A book I would strongly recommend obtaining is "Reasoning from the Scriptures With the Jehovah's Witnesses" by Ron Rhodes. I also performed a search, and there appears to be a few resourceful links at a page on his website http://www.ronrhodes.addr.com/jws.htm.

I was hoping here to also briefly describe my own first encounter with JW's, and also a summary of some of Rhode's advice on reasoning with them, but I have to go out right now so perhaps I'll try get around to it a bit later.

Kurieuo.

"Of a truth yes. That's why I like to point to the Bible and say that I'm not the person judging them - God has already judged the matter (point to verse)."

Yes of course God has judged generally the matter, although as THIS very website says in the "never heard" section, God judges everyone by their own right - by their conscience. If, for example, an invert J/W family had only ever known the J/W cult, and non other, it is not our place to judge but God. Unless people are fully understanding of the Gospel, even what is written in the Gospel cannot save them, since they do not know; furthermore, the Lord will save on the basis of right and wrong - examining their conscience.

why does everyone always attack jehovah witnesses and why are they viewed as a cult? as far as i know, the only thing that really sets their religion apart is that they believe that jesus is the son of God but not God himself. christians believe that Jesus is God. we both believe that Jesus was/is divine and that he is our savior.

???

colors wrote:as far as i know, the only thing that really sets their religion apart is that they believe that jesus is the son of God but not God himself. christians believe that Jesus is God.

The only thing? This makes all the difference in the world. Also, I don't see JWs being attacked here?? I only see their doctrines being challenged.

Kurieuo.

why is that a big deal? why does it make all the difference in the world?

also, i didn't mean here...just hear them attacked by alot of people in many situations. should have clarified that.

Athanasius pointed out the significance of Christ being God when he was defending against Arianism. If Christ is not God, then Christ is unable to redeem humanity, should not receive worship, and we are all lost. Essentially it breaks down into two styles of theological arguments:

1) No creature can redeem another creature.
2) According to Arius (and JWs), Jesus Christ is a creature.
3) Therefore, Jesus Christ cannot redeem humanity.

And the second which is similar, is built more upon Scripture and Christian tradition:

1) Only God can save.
2) Jesus Christ saves.
3) Therefore Jesus Christ is God.

Essentially this is what it comes down to. To reject such a core teaching of Christianity, is to rip away the foundations of the Gospel message.

Kurieuo.

k,

please give me more instances that show that God and Jesus are one--they must be concrete. it is for a friend of mine.

Well first, we should agree that if Jesus is the only essence of God that can manifest it(HIM)self as Man, in human form, then even in the old testaments there are indirect references to God. For example, when the LORD summoned people to the tabernacle when they were testing Moses' leadership, it is written: "and God stood before them." Only God through Jesus Christ can stand before a man - and Jesus was the face that Moses recognised as God. Moses met "face to face" with God. "Assuredly I say, I communicate with the peoples in visions and dreams but not with Moses. For I have chosen Moses amongst the people, and I meet with him face to face."

Also, who was it that was "walking with Adam and Eve" in the garden of Eden?

You may argue ... even if Jesus did appear in human form to Moses and others, it does not prove that He is One with God - but it does. For He says "I AM the LORD your God" etc..

There are plenty of references in the New Testament writings after the gospels to the Trinity and to the oneness of God and Jesus; countless even. And if Jesus gave the Apostles the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the ability to talk in tongues, having full understanding of the way, life and teachings of Christ, we can rely on their word.

Let's look at the popular first chapter of John (John 1:1-18), which clearly indicates that Christ is God. However, if you're talking with a JW they change the end of verse 1 to read "and the Word was [a] [g]od." There is no reason for this change at all, and I believe it can be argued convincingly that their translation is incorrect, but lets not go there as it will likely lead nowhere. Instead, zoom in on the words, "All things came into being by Him [the Word], and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (you don't need to worry about translation issues here). Now only "God Almighty" is eternal. If everything that came into existence was by Christ, and apart from Christ nothing came into being that has come into being, then Christ is eternal (not a created angelic being) and so must be "God Almighty." I came across a great procedure for outlining this argument with full impact at http://www.str.org/free/solid_ground/SG0007.htm, which I'd highly recommend carrying through.

Additionally Scripture reveals Jehovah and Christ as Creator, Alpha and Omega, I AM, Judge, King, Light, Saviour, and Shepherd, and many other things. You can observe comparable Scriptures for each of the titles I just stated at http://www.str.org/free/studies/yahweh.htm.

Anyway, I'm sure this will do for now. If you require further information, or a defense of certain Scriptures that get brought to your attention (which they likely will), simply ask and I will respond.

Kurieuo.

thanks for infor.

Saying Christ is God is heresy, not Christianity. Christ never claimed to be God, and the word "trinity" never appears in the Bible.Let's look at Jesus own words at John 14:28


28You heard Me tell you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you [really] loved Me, you would have been glad, because I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater and mightier than I am.


Twist in the wind, trinitarians! Because Jesus says the father is GREATER than he is. Would you change the Bible to fit your beliefs?

How about this?

Matthew 24:36 - But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

The Father has knowledge that he hasn't shared with Christ. They are not the same being.

Here's another scripture, from Colossians

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Let's see, this scripture refers to Christ as the "image" of God. An image can bear a very strong resemblance, but it is not the same thing. I can have a son who has my "spirit and image"(corrupted to spittin' image), and yet he is not me, he is my son. Then this verse goes on to say that Jesus is a creature, or created being. Since God was not created, but is rather the Creator, then this also rules out Jesus being God. Yes, Jesus holds a very high position, second only to God himself. He is the "way, the truth, and the light". But he is not God, and never claimed to be. He claimed to be exactly what he is, the firstborn of creation, and God's "master workman" for all future creation. Check out Proverbs 8

The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26 before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 then I was beside him, like a master workman; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, 31