Evidence for God from Science

I hope I'm not inciting a riot here....but I sincerely want to clarify some of my lingering doubt or stand to be convinced by the other side.

I do hope too that all positng here will be of good faith without personal attacks since this is a touchy subject.

I'm not a charismatic & have read quite a few books that justify the passing of the spiritual gifts when the perfect is come. Yet, I don't seem to reconcile with the fact that
1) some of the gifts (words of knowledge , wisdom) are still present.
2) that the perfect (1Cor 13:10) is reference to the Bible & not the 2nd coming of Christ.
3) that there are really genuine incidents of healings during those healing rallies... amidst many other false ones...tho I do not doubt that God can still heal miraculously.
4) if what is practised by charismatic are false, then do they still have salvation with their profession of Christ & Holy living. We're talking about a different spirit coming to them.

Can anyone explain?

On the other hand, I don't understand why the charismatic
1) are defying the the rules laid down by Paul in 1cor 14:27-28 on the proper practise of tongues.
2) are feeling uplifted by things like Holy Laughter (Toronto blessings), gold dust on the palm, teeth, body. What purpose does this provide other than showmanship? Are our Christian faith so weak that we need such & such to strenghten our faith rather than thru the word of God?
Christ himself tried to play down on His healing ministry in order that the people may focus on His words.
3) can feel excited about being slain in the spirit. What purpose does it serve?

Can charismatic enlighten me on the above...so that I can have a balance view?

You say you are not a charismatic but you are obviously attracted to that expression of christianity. I would tell you to go explore it, you seem to have enough healthy skepticism to not be overwhelmed by it.

In re your questions:

1 I would say that all the spiritual gifts are still with us, even if some of them are not used much anymore.

2 Paul was talking about the temporary nature of everything when compared to love, then he equates perfect love with Jesus and says that all will be known at His coming. It couldn't refer to the bible because it doesn't claim to be the last word, or perfect knowledge. There is more to come.

3 I am sure that there are genuine healings taking place amidst the excitement and foolishness.

4 Who says what is practiced by the charismatics is false? There are many different practices of christianity, all of which are condemned by someone, but it is not as important what you do as what you believe. If you believe in the power of Jesus to save and if you don't commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, then you are ok. There is only one Spirit but there are many different reactions to Him.

I don't know what your background is, what denomination you favor, but I can tell you that there are and always have been many different ways of perceiving and responding to God. The english prayer book and the sects that came out of calvinism are as unemotional as high catholicism is emotional. On the other hand you have spiritual expressions that vary from an apparent fear of spirituality to embrace of almost anything. Each of us has to find his place in all this, and you don't have to stick to any one in particular. It is all the same church, the same God above it and the same Lord awaiting us

I like what J316 says and to answer all "The Edge" says would create major debate.
I would like to address this question (statement):

" I don't understand why the charismatic
1) are defying the the rules laid down by Paul in 1cor 14:27-28 on the proper practise of tongues. "

Years ago I answered a similar charge spelt out with more detail in a Presbyterian journal in New Zealand.
The charges are made and numbered. My responses are listed below.


In your June issue Dale Tooley criticized Arthur Gunn for describing the Pentecostals as the "gravest heresy".

Anyone who really bows to God's word, and understands the 14th chapter of 1 Corinthians, cannot unite with, or if united, cannot remain in Pentecostal movements.

This 14th chapter makes it clear that prophesy is superior to tongues (verse 1-25); certain regulations govern the exercise of each (verses 26-33); women members of a local church are to refrain from speaking in its gatherings (verses 34-36); two things are to be observed, that the instructions given are the commandment of the Lord, and the exercise of spiritual gifts is to be decent and in order (verse 37-39). Whatever is done in the local church gathering must be for the benefit of all present, and in this respect would Dale Tooley give honest answers to the following?

1. Do Pentecostals use tongues as a sign to believers or unbelievers?

2. Is prophesy more desirable than tongues?

3. Do Pentecostals pray that they may interpret tongues?

4. Do Pentecostals speak in mysteries (that is, previously hidden truth, now divinely revealed but in which a supernatural element still remains?)

5. Do only two, or at the most three, speak in tongues at a Pentecostal meeting?

6. Do Pentecostals speak in turn or simultaneously at their meetings?
7. Do they impose silence if no interpreter?

8. Do they pray in tongues without interpretations in their meetings?

9. Do women keep silence in the Pentecostal meetings?

10. Do Pentecostals acknowledge that the commandments of Ist Cor. 14 are the commandments of the Lord?

11 Why do Pentecostals so constantly speak of our Lord as simply "Jesus?" (Ref 1 Cor. 12:3 and Acts 2:36).

12. Do Pentecostals believe that once they accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their own personal Saviour they are saved eternally, or do they believe that they can be lost again?

A. Tully


NOT "TONGUES"

It needs to be emphasised that the Charismatic Movement or Pentecostalism is not a movement of "tongues," nor is it a sect or cult claiming infallibility of doctrine or sole rights to dispense the Word of God. Rather it is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit across the whole body of God's people who live in vital union with the Lord Jesus Christ.

As I am limited to 300 words to answer Mr Tully's 12 questions, readers will understand if my replies lack adequate detail. Could readers refer to A. Tully's letter to save repeating the questions.

1. The sign ministry of tongues is only one aspect of the use of the gift and is, as the scriptures teach, to unbelievers (1 Cor. 14:22).

2. Yes. Prophesy is equated to tongues and interpretation together.

3, Yes.

4. Yes. But I question your correspondent's understanding of mysteries in this instance. In the prayer tongue we speak in mysteries unto God.

5. In my observations over 15 years, yes.

6. They speak in turn in the public function of the gift.

7. I do not remember ever hearing a public utterance of tongues that has failed to be interpreted. A person who speaks in tongues in this way should always be prepared to believe God for the interpretation.

8. Yes. They speak quietly to themselves and to God.

9. Rather depends on your interpretation of what the Apostle Paul meant. Philip had four daughters who did prophesy. Who did they prophesy to?

10. Of course.

11. I reject that charge utterly. This is a false accusation perpetrated in a Brethren booklet entitled "Is the Gift of Tongues for Today?" written about ten years ago.

12. As Pentecostalism embraces the traditional theology of many it is impossible to speak for all at this point. Personally I am convinced from the scriptures that one can not only be lost, but lost irretrievably. Hebrews 6:4-6.

I've researched extensively and written on Montanists, and it appears to me that prophecy was commonly accepted within some early Christian churches (i.e., such as at Carthage). Tertullian also acknowledges the existence of spiritually minded bishops within the "Catholic" church in his writings.

This conflict about whether gifts have ceased has therefore lasted for almost two millenia. I frankly believe in prophecies and gifts, but I question I've ever truly witnessed a "real" case. Yet it seems foolish to me to totally rule out that such spiritual gifts still aren't given today.

Kurieuo.

Dale Tooley wrote: 5. In my observations over 15 years, yes.
7. I do not remember ever hearing a public utterance of tongues that has failed to be interpreted. A person who speaks in tongues in this way should always be prepared to believe God for the interpretation.
8. Yes. They speak quietly to themselves and to God.

Unfortunately where I'm from this situation is different. I've been to quite a few Charismatic churches & is also currently in a cell group that's are made up mainly of Charistmatics.
All my experiences have told me that the rules aren't being observed.
Spontaneous breaking into tongues occur within the congregation. Sometimes, a person will come up & claim to have the interpretation...but not always in every services...or not every "tongue sessions" within the same service. Unless the "interpretator" is interpreting for everyone & all the different "tongue sessions" within a service or claim to speak for previous services where interpretation was not given, I'm convince the "tongues rules" are not followed. This is especially so in cell meetings where I get no interpretation at all when people beside me starts speaking in tongues in the midst of prayer.

I'm also wondering why doesn't more people get the gift of healing....at least close to the same proportion of people who have the gift of tongues, or teachings.

Kurieuo wrote: I frankly believe in prophecies and gifts, but I question I've ever truly witnessed a "real" case. Yet it seems foolish to me to totally rule out that such spiritual gifts still aren't given today.
Kurieuo.

One of my Christian friend reminded me of that too & for that I'm a bit more "open" than what my church probably would like me to be.

Just that I can't reconcile with the fact that if most of what I observe (tongues, gold dust, holy laughter) don't seem to jive with the peace & order of the Holy Spirit, then what spirit is that then, & are the people (many of my friends are really great Christian in terms of their testimonies & ministries) really saved? (since I don't believe that Christian can be possess).

Just a short response to "the edge".

There is a difference between bringing correction in the use of the gifts
and using any supposed incorrect use of the gifts to try and prove they are not in fact gifts of the Spirit at all.FortunatelyI don't think "the edge" is doing that.
Some think Paul was belittling tongues in 1 Corinthians - in spite of the fact he says "I thank my God I speak in tongues more than you all."
Actually Paul is speaking here of the prayer tongue which is "praying in the spirit" a wonderful refreshing gift that brings the anointing of the Holy Spirit, though we are told to pray "with the understanding also".
The prayer tongue does not require interpretation and is not the companion gift to "the interpretation of tongues". This is a great source of misunderstanding with some!

Dale Tooley wrote:Just a short response to "the edge".

The prayer tongue does not require interpretation and is not the companion gift to "the interpretation of tongues". This is a great source of misunderstanding with some!

How does an "outsider" like myself discern the difference & not expect an interpretation?....as it seems to me that the tongues being used in worship setting during prayer is no different from that being used in my cell group setting.
Or is interpretation to be expected only if the Speaker/Pastor speaks in tongues?

The Edge asks: How does an "outsider" like myself discern the difference & not expect an interpretation?....as it seems to me that the tongues being used in worship setting during prayer is no different from that being used in my cell group setting.

In my experience the difference is usually obvious. Christians can pray together in tongues softly. When one tongue is spoken more strongly the others will instinctively hush completely expecting an interpretation. Sometimes that does not happen and the pastor or leader of the prayer group, if he/she is discerning will either say , "Some one has the interpretation to that tongue , please bring it "(all the gifts work through the measure of faith and some need encouragement here) .
Or, the same leader might discern that someone using a prayer tongue spoke out too loudly and he/she can restore order gently by saying, "That was a prayer tongue and needs no interpretation". O f course , in that moment some one may (with a measure of faith ) prophecy, which is essentially the same as interpretation of tongues and in my experience has now become more standard practice. Hope this helps!

Thks Dale
it does help, tho in all honesty, I'm not too sure I could fully accept it given the current experience, since audibility has different limit for different people. Well at least it can help me understand my gp of frens better.

Pray tell if you've heard of or experience "miracles" like
1) Holy laughter
2) shiny particles on the shirt
3) gold dust on palm or gold in the teeth

What do u make of these? Are they a sign for unbelievers?

The items you mention are really "on the edge".

I don't question Holy laughter given some of the wonderful
anointings of the Holy spirit I have experienced and seen in others
and doubtless the joy of the Lord experienced in this way could be
attractive to an unbeliever but I think we should let that happen in the Sovereignty of God rather than seek after it.

I was once invited (along with others in a church) to look at some
who claimed to have gold glitter on the hands and hair. Call me unbelieving but I couldn't see anything! I don't really believe in signs for signs sake ( for instance "Stigmata" ). All the miracle of Christ and the Apostles brought deliverance of some kind and I think all miracles should be for that purpose.

This is a really interesting and refreshingly restrained discussion. Back in the late 80's I was sitting on the couch one evening when I felt something that seemed like it was bubbling up within me. I knew then that if I wanted to I could speak in tongues, it was right there. Unfortunately since I am of a reserved nature I was too embarassed to do it and it has really never come back.

Since then I have been prayed over in tongues and my wife prays in tongues often. I find it comforting, not weird or threatening. Several months ago my wife felt it was urgent to pray for me, it was in tongues but this one was interpreted afterward. It was a message that turned out to be important, I think the Lord knew I would blow it off if it wasn't delivered in a dramatic fashion.

I now think there is more to all that than a lot of people would credit, but I also think that there is alot of profiteering, vanity and foolishness in that area today.

I appreciate what J316 said and understood him perfectly.

When God baptised me with the Holy Spirit I was sitting alone in the back seat of my car, in the garage, where i had gone to pray. Waves of anointing poured through my body giving me an urgent desire to praise God at the top of my voice. My tongue found it difficult to form words in English but my mind fought back the desire to speak in another language because it seemed foolish. However, later as I gave vent to those feelings it became supernaturally natural to do so - and it brought back waves of that initial anointing, not as intense, but always somehow refreshing.
Whenever there was a crisis, particularly, I learned that praying in tongues was very helpful.
One needs to understand that the Devil hates the gifts of the Spirit, and of course he does all he can to discredit them by tripping the feet of those who have used them to plunder his territory. Proverbs 14: 4 says, "Where no oxen are the trough is clean; but much increase comes by the strength of the ox." There are some clumsy oxes in the Pentecostal Charismatic movement and there is some dung on the floor.
I prefer that to a sterile stable , with no power and no anointing evident!

Dale Tooley wrote:I appreciate what J316 said and understood him perfectly.

When God baptised me with the Holy Spirit I was sitting alone in the back seat of my car, in the garage, where i had gone to pray. Waves of anointing poured through my body giving me an urgent desire to praise God at the top of my voice. My tongue found it difficult to form words in English but my mind fought back the desire to speak in another language because it seemed foolish. However, later as I gave vent to those feelings it became supernaturally natural to do so - and it brought back waves of that initial anointing, not as intense, but always somehow refreshing.
Whenever there was a crisis, particularly, I learned that praying in tongues was very helpful.
One needs to understand that the Devil hates the gifts of the Spirit, and of course he does all he can to discredit them by tripping the feet of those who have used them to plunder his territory. Proverbs 14: 4 says, "Where no oxen are the trough is clean; but much increase comes by the strength of the ox." There are some clumsy oxes in the Pentecostal Charismatic movement and there is some dung on the floor.
I prefer that to a sterile stable , with no power and no anointing evident!

Thks j316 & Dale.
It's interesting that Dale you mentioned about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. From both your account, it does appear that the experience was not something that both of you actively seek, but was granted "out of nowhere" by His grace. It does appear that the current state of affairs in churches here is abit different tho. People pray & ask for it & hands are laid on those who doesn't have it.
Couple with the statement that it's the baptism of the Holy Spirit plus that churches that doesn't have it has no anointing evident, it does makes those who don't practise it feel 2nd class....or worst even unsaved.

How does one differentiate salvation & the receiving of the Holy Spirit vs the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
Further why is the baptism of the Holy Spirit usually relates a person to the gift of tongues & there're much much less people having the gifts of interpretation & healing?
Won't more people be eager to receive the gift of healing vs the gift of tongues?

In answer to your question about the baptism of the spirit I think the answer lies in where the experience comes from. I have had some in depth experience with meditation and one of the first things I realized was how easy it is to create experiences, it is hard to tell a difference between genuine inputs or experiences and those that are self created.

With that in mind think about the emotional state of someone who has been moved by a sermon or other influence to the point of acceptance of Jesus, it is a very overwhelming and emotional experience. It would not be surprising to me to find out that some of what occurrs at that time is due to suggestion. I'm not saying it is bogus in any way, but it may be greatly exaggerated.

The real baptism is when the Holy Spirit affirms His acceptance of you. You had previously chosen the Lord, this is the response. I think it marks the beginning of the transformation process.

My experiences have somewhat mirrored Paul, I actually sought none of what has happened to me. The tongues experience was not the first that I had. I do think that seeking predefined experiences is an invitation to those who want to do harm.