Evidence for God from Science

Here's a link to essays on Preterism.

http://www.tektonics.org/esch/pretsum.html

I'm not an expert on it, but from what I've read so far, and when it comes to interpretations of the End Times, I've found it quite logical, accurate, and refreshing!!

I only read the summary not the main body of text, but my thinking is why wouldn't revelations make it clear of the large time gap between most of its prophecies and the ones for the end times? The 7 year tribulation timeframe is specifically recorded, the 1000 year reign of Christ is specifically dated, yet not the 2000+ years in-between other events recorded? Seems kinda daft as far as I'm concerned.

And plus, references to the numbers serving in the various armies and the amount of destruction surely does not sync up with what happened in 63 AD...

What about the Anti-christ, 666? We usually see Nero as having filled that slot, though I know others have suggested Titus, Vespasian, and others.

The Anti-Christ is supposed to usher in peace, and he's supposed to be a blasphemous imitation of Jesus. Nero wasn't a very good man in anyone's eyes....unless you know another version of history?

Well, I had been totally oblivious to anything having to do with Christianity up until a year ago, and the End Times was something I never got around to. So I don't know any specifics about the End of Days. But I will say that one of the points made in an essay was that references to the moon looking like blood, and the sky falling, etc (the real serious stuff) are very similar to prophecies made about the conquering of Israel by the Assyrians, Babylonians etc. For example:

Isaiah 13:9-10 (NIV)
Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and He will destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be darkened in its going forth, and the moon will not cause its light to shine.

So, many of the descriptions in Revelations and the Gospels are taken too literally by some in a "low context" society like us Americans and Canadians. Any questions can be answered by the webmaster of that site. He responds pretty quickly and regularly.

Felgar wrote:yet not the 2000+ years in-between other events recorded?

Well, Daniel pretty much talks plenty about that stuff (there's one more Empire left to go). Jesus emphasizes that "the end" will not come with any signs, and he references Sodom and Gomorrah (or Noah's flood), how those places never had any warning, it just happened. I guess we should just live life the same way whether the End Times are near or not.

Matthew 24 4-8 (The Message)
4Jesus said, "Watch out for doomsday deceivers. 5Many leaders are going to show up with forged identities, claiming, "I am Christ, the Messiah.' They will deceive a lot of people. 6When reports come in of wars and rumored wars, keep your head and don't panic. This is routine history; this is no sign of the end. 7Nation will fight nation and ruler fight ruler, over and over. Famines and earthquakes will occur in various places. 8This is nothing compared to what is coming.

shirtless wrote:I'm not an expert on it, but from what I've read so far, and when it comes to interpretations of the End Times, I've found it quite logical, accurate, and refreshing!!

Ahh.. finally a doctrine you bring up I'd be congenial too

Kurieuo.

Ahh.. finally a doctrine you bring up I'd be congenial too

Thanks! Funny how all this time I thought you were a huge fan of polygamous, homosexual, pre-marital relationships where swinging is common, and they euthanize their family members while working at abortion clinics part-time.

Shirtless wrote:Jesus emphasizes that "the end" will not come with any signs, and he references Sodom and Gomorrah (or Noah's flood), how those places never had any warning, it just happened.

Hmm, actually we're told of a whole list of signs further down in Luke's version of the passage that you quoted from Matthew about nations fighting.

Luke 21:25-28
There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

You are right though, that Jesus is careful to caution that no one will know the day or hour. So we know it may be getting close, but we still don't know the exact time. Basically hold out for a great leader that makes a 7 year peace agreement with Isreal in order to usher in peace through the middle East and world, then when he breaks it after 3 1/2 years you know he's the antichrist. That person will be crushed by the return of Jesus.

But basically all I've said is pretty much the extent of my understanding of the end times. I have never studied it enough to form a coherent understanding of my own.

Shirtless wrote: I guess we should just live life the same way whether the End Times are near or not.

Absolutely!

Felgar, I have thought about the end times fairly often and one thing has struck in regard to some of the things that are predicted. If you were following the news regularly how would you know whether or not you were in the middle of those events? Think about it, the news now could be apocalyptic, or it could have been at any particular time in history.

I also feel that shirtless has the correct idea.

As far as I can tell, the reason Jesus says "...because your redemption is drawing near." is because we're talking about three ages. You see, according to preterists, the events of 70 AD was the beginning of the age of the Messiah.

This would be best explained with an email exchange I had with the leader of Tekton Ministries. I had a question about why demons and Satan are in the NT so much, but it doesn't seem like they're making much of a fuss today. He responded...

---------------
In a message dated 4/15/2005 9:24:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, jphold@earthlink.net writes:

As a preterist I don't have much interest in Satan (since I think he is now bound; and that happened in 70 AD or so, so that Matthew records a time before the binding). I might point out that preterism does solve this seeming problem of why demons and such abounded in Jesus' day, but are so little in evidence now. Perhaps you may wish to convert to preterism.

Then I wrote:
>>>Maybe you can help with my simple questions: Just what are these "ages", and how many ages are there? What is their purpose? What specifically happened at the end of the first, and what will happen at the end of the last? etc...

In a message dated 4/16/2005 7:43:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, jphold@earthlink.net writes:

There are really only three -- age of the law, age of the messiah, and a third once the final judgment and resurrection occurs. Purpose -- well, the law was a stopgap until the time was right for the Messiah; I'm not sure one can speak of a "purpose" for the others beyond, "for our salvation".

At the end of the first were all the 70 AD events -- fall of Jerusalem, covenant lawsuit against Israel, verification of the church as a divinely sanctioned body. At the end of the second, final judgment and resurrection. The third has no visible end.
-----------------------

So, according to preterism, when Jesus says something about the end of "this age", he means exactly what he said to his disciples:

Matthew 24:34
Most assuredly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

j316 wrote:If you were following the news regularly how would you know whether or not you were in the middle of those events? Think about it, the news now could be apocalyptic, or it could have been at any particular time in history.

Many prophecies are like that, in that they could apply in varying degrees to various points throughout history. But the spectacular rise of a single leader that ushers in world peace and in particular a 7 year agreement with Isreal is not something that applies to past events. Which is the exact reason I haven't spent much time learning about the end times, because they very well may be a long ways off.

Um, to tektonics whoever, there are still demons around...sheesh.

Felgar wrote:

j316 wrote:If you were following the news regularly how would you know whether or not you were in the middle of those events? Think about it, the news now could be apocalyptic, or it could have been at any particular time in history.

Many prophecies are like that, in that they could apply in varying degrees to various points throughout history. But the spectacular rise of a single leader that ushers in world peace and in particular a 7 year agreement with Isreal is not something that applies to past events. Which is the exact reason I haven't spent much time learning about the end times, because they very well may be a long ways off.

I would put myself in the preterist camp so I believe that all that has already happened but there is one thing I find kind of interesting. Prior to the final events of revelation, after the millennium, satan is to be released for a time. I wonder, given the nature of some of the things that have happened in the 150 years, if we are not in that period of time now. The primary reason I say that is because satan is the accuser of the church, and the pace of that has been increasing almost exponentially in the recent past.

Given the current state of expectatation as to the nearness of some great event, could people be confusing the pre rapture period with the pre armageddon period?

j316 wrote:

Felgar wrote:

j316 wrote:If you were following the news regularly how would you know whether or not you were in the middle of those events? Think about it, the news now could be apocalyptic, or it could have been at any particular time in history.

Many prophecies are like that, in that they could apply in varying degrees to various points throughout history. But the spectacular rise of a single leader that ushers in world peace and in particular a 7 year agreement with Isreal is not something that applies to past events. Which is the exact reason I haven't spent much time learning about the end times, because they very well may be a long ways off.

I would put myself in the preterist camp so I believe that all that has already happened but there is one thing I find kind of interesting. Prior to the final events of revelation, after the millennium, satan is to be released for a time. I wonder, given the nature of some of the things that have happened in the 150 years, if we are not in that period of time now. The primary reason I say that is because satan is the accuser of the church, and the pace of that has been increasing almost exponentially in the recent past.

Given the current state of expectatation as to the nearness of some great event, could people be confusing the pre rapture period with the pre armageddon period?

For the first part I would have to say no. What is the Determining Factor of when He was released from the Abyss? And when was Satan ever Thrown into the Abyss?

j316 wrote:I would put myself in the preterist camp so I believe that all that has already happened but there is one thing I find kind of interesting. Prior to the final events of revelation, after the millennium, satan is to be released for a time. I wonder, given the nature of some of the things that have happened in the 150 years, if we are not in that period of time now. The primary reason I say that is because satan is the accuser of the church, and the pace of that has been increasing almost exponentially in the recent past.

No we couldn't be in that period now due to the fact that we have not seen the battle of Ameggedon that marks the demise of the anti-christ and the start of the 1000-year reign.

On top of what Felgar says in the Book of Daniel it tells us that there will be a peace treaty between Israel and The Anti-Christ for 7 years. We have not seen that yet!