Evidence for God from Science

What is the doctrine pertaining to the thief on the cross who ended up in paradise with Jesus after the day was done? (Luke 23:43). Does pre-resurrection/death play into why he was forgiven? Otherwise this supports the 'do bad all your life then right before you die repent and receive everlasting life' theology. A lot of skeptics don't like the idea of that... I'm not sure how the whole ordeal works there. All the thief did was 1) fear God (vs. 40), 2) acknowledge his sin (vs. 41), 3) and recognize two things about Jesus - His sinlessness and Lordship (vs 41 + 42). I know becoming a Christian is a very difficult thing "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Mat 7:14). But here it seems like it's a rather simple checklist - what actually needs to happen for someone to be saved and when they die end up in paradise? Is it even possible to boil it down into a few bullets of 'do this' or 'receive that'?

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As has been mentioned twice already in the past week...the account of the thief in Luke...

Luke 23:43 NIV wrote:Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

has been the subject of much debate. To me, the absence of punctuation in the original language is cause for concern as to where the translators of the NIV and other translations put the comma to emphasize their own interpretations.

Regardless of where Christ paused for emphasis, it remains that the thief did not die that day. In fact they were taken down and their legs broken so they could not get away in keeping with the "Jewish Sabbath keeping."

John 19:31-33 NIV wrote:Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

Their legs need not be broken if they were dead.

While it is true that one can "live like hell" and then confess their sinfulness at their death bed, not many people do or even have that luxury! How many Atheists do you know that at death they would confess to a God they spent their lives trying to argue against (at least those that frequent this forum)

It can happen, but like the rarity of such happening so is the one example given in the scriptures.

It is quite simple to become a Christian, it is more difficult to remain a Christian as the numerous pleadings in the scriptures to remain in Christ and stay away from those that try to discourage Christians.
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As for the punctuation, first . . .

"Truly I say to you, today . . ." is the way the MKJV renders it. The phrase "Truly I say to you today" is, in the Greek, αμην λεγω (amen lego). I did a very quick search and found that that phrase occurs 67 times in the NT, all spoken by Jesus. Not a SINGLE phrase has the extra "today" as would be rendered, "Truly I say to you today . . ." It is always, "Truly I say to you . . ." Thus, the "today" becomes redundant. Obviously, for Luke, Jesus was saying that the thief would be with Him in paradise that day.

(Side note, if you just look for English renditions, "Truly I say to you" in the MKJV, you come up with 79 statements, none of which have the redundancy mentioned. The NASB, which is the most word-for-word translation finds 76 occurences of the same phrase and again without the redundancy.)

As for the thief not actually dying that day . . .

I don't see how you get that they were killed the next day out of the passage in John. They crucified Jesus on Friday and took Him off the cross that same day. He was in the tomb Friday night, Saturday, and early Sunday morning.

The thieves legs were broken Friday night ("the next day was to be a special Sabbath" John 19:31), so, they did die "that day."

Anyway, as to your main theological point, though, the "deathbed salvation" is much better exemplified by Matt. 20:1-16. There we read the parable of the laborers and the amount they are paid. The people who worked all day were paid exactly the same as the people who worked only a few hours. And why? Because the Master has the right to pay whomever however much He wishes based on His grace! What right have we to be jealous because God has been merciful? Jesus asks this bluntly in verse 15: "Or is your eye envious because I am generous?'" (NASB) When we get angry over this, we find ourselves in the same position of Jonah when God spared Nineveh. God's words to him should be revealing to us:

• Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight. Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?" Jonah 4:10-11

God has compassion on those whom He will have compassion. Those who have "deathbed salvations" may not receive the same rewards as lifelong Christians, but, they will still receive Heaven. Look, also, at the words of the father of the prodigal son to the older son:

• "And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours. But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'" Luke 15:31-32

Hope that helps,

God bless

edit: I did a more thorough search on the Greek construction of "Truly I say to you" and found something very interesting:

The construction for "Truly I say to you today" is αμην λεγω σοι λεγω σημερον. (amen lego soi lego semeron). When you do a search for this particular construction, it occurs only ONE other time in the NT, spoken again by Jesus. The verse: Mark 14:30, which reads, "And Jesus *said to him, "Truly I say to you, that this very night, before a rooster crows twice, you yourself will deny Me three times."" (NASB)

So, the only other time where Jesus uses the word "today" (lit. σημερον), He uses it in the sense, "I tell you, today." That much more evidence . . .

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How do you reconcile that the thief died the same day Jesus died?

I never stated they died the next day...they just didn't die the same day.
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They did die the same day, Bav. Both died on Friday.

Jesus died on Friday, and the theives died on Friday . . .

Jac3510 wrote:They did die the same day, Bav. Both died on Friday.

Jesus died on Friday, and the theives died on Friday . . .

Then why were their legs broken???
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Their legs were broken on Friday. Look at the text:

The NASB wrote:So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him; but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. John 19:23-33

So, they broke the legs of the theives while Jesus was still on the cross. What day did the take Jesus off the cross? Friday. We see this here:

The NASB wrote:Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. John 19:31

So, again . . .

Jesus dies on Friday.
Theives legs are broken on Friday.
Theives die on Friday.

The theif went to heaven on "that day."

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Ask yourself this question. Why break the legs of already dead men.

The text plainly says they didn't break Christ's legs because he was already dead...meaning the other two weren't already dead.

My argument is not which day Christ died...I think that is clear. It is when did the other two die.

It is logic at it's most basic level.
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Bav,

Imagine this: Jesus dies on Friday, as we noted. The soldiers don't know he is dead yet, nor do the Pharisees, so they go to Pilate and ask to have the men's legs broken because tomorrow is the Sabbath (see previous verse references).

They go out and break the legs of the two thieves. The go to Jesus and see He is already dead, so they don't break his legs.

The thieves die a few minutes later.

Jesus dies Friday.
Thieves die Friday.

Whenever Jesus was asked in the Gospels - "How do I inherit eternal life?", His reply contained two conditions:

1) Believe in me
2) Repent (no more wilful sinning)

I think the thief fulfilled both.

The breaking of legs makes it difficult for a person crucified to breathe - an indirect way of suffocation.

Jac3510 wrote:Bav,

Imagine this: Jesus dies on Friday, as we noted. The soldiers don't know he is dead yet, nor do the Pharisees, so they go to Pilate and ask to have the men's legs broken because tomorrow is the Sabbath (see previous verse references).

They go out and break the legs of the two thieves. The go to Jesus and see He is already dead, so they don't break his legs.

The thieves die a few minutes later.

Jesus dies Friday.
Thieves die Friday.

You avoided answering the question.

Crucifixion was not meant to be a short death. It normally lasted a few days at least.

They broke the legs of the thieves so that they could not make an escape attempt. They would be put up again after the Sabbath.
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BavarianWheels wrote:They broke the legs of the thieves so that they could not make an escape attempt. They would be put up again after the Sabbath.

You have a reference for that? I've never heard that argument. Everyone I've read agreed they broke their legs so that they would die very quickly. Some references:

Rich wrote:Why did the Romans break the legs of the victims? Death by crucifixion occurred through exhaustion asphyxia - the victim eventually suffocated. The position of the body on the cross left the chest muscles used for breathing in a permanent inhalation position. In order to exhale, the victim would have to actively push his body up against the nails holding his feet to the cross. By breaking the victims legs, the only way he could breathe was by using his arm and shoulder muscles to pull against the nails in his hands to lift his body. This maneuver was extremely painful and tiring, so that the victim died relatively quickly.

From http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/p ... tions.html. Also,
David Terasaka, M.D. says crucifixion was,

HASTENED by the breaking of the legs, so that the victim could not push up to take a good breath . . . This procedure, called crurifracture, prevented the ability of the victim to take in a good breath. Death would quickly occur from suffocation.

Similarly, Dr. C. Truman Davis states,

The common method of ending a crucifixion was by crurifracture, the breaking of the bones of the legs. This prevented the victim from pushing himself upward; thus the tension could not be relieved from the muscles of the chest and rapid suffocation occurred. The legs of the two thieves were broken, but when the soldiers came to Jesus they saw that this was unnecessary.

More on crurifracture:

Here are two transcripts of what I take to be online meetings with an individual particuarly interested in OT studies (Transcript 1, Transcript 2). Do a search for the word "crurifracture" there, and you'll find the references of interest.

Christianity.Com state,

The general method of ending a crucifixion was by crurifracture, which is to break the persons leg bones. That way, they can no longer lift themselves up and they die from asphyxiation.

Encyclopedia.com says, regarding the breaking of the legs of those being crucified:

The prisoner was either nailed or tied to the cross, and, to induce more rapid death, his legs were often broken.

We could go on and on . . . so, I think I did answer your question. The theives legs were broken on Friday, they died within a few minutes.

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Hmmm...I'll have to admit...sounds like a good scenario.
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hehe, yeah . . . makes sense to me

Jac3510 wrote:hehe, yeah . . . makes sense to me

You're right...it does make sense. However it doesn't make sense when one reads the words in...

Revelation 22:12 NIV wrote:Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me...

Matthew 16:24 NIV wrote:For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

Matthew 25:31-34 NIV wrote:When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the King will say to those on his right, `Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

John 6:39,40 NIV wrote:And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

See also John 6:44, 6:54, 11:24, 12:48

Throughout the Bible, it uses sleep as a metaphor for death...we are told "the dead know nothing." (Eccl 9:5) It is quite clear from many points in the Bible that our reward is with Christ at his return. The mortal cannot inherit the kingdom.

1 Corinthinans 15:50-55 NIV wrote:I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory.

"Where, O death, is your victory?

Where, O death, is your sting?"

Isn't it quite clear here...the dead are perishable, the living are perishable...and both are changed...when? At the last trumpet...when Christ comes...when the righteous dead are raised (raised? But aren't the righteous dead already in heaven??? How can they be "raised" and again be made imperishable...and must it happen twice for them?) from the dead...from the grave...from knowing nothing.

If this were not so, the last lines of verse 55 really means nothing as to the Christian, death would be a blessing. We clearly see death has a sting.

If at death the righteous person actually goes to heaven, why aren't more uniformed Christians killing themselves the few moments after accepting Christ? If it were the case...I'm telling you right now, I'd be in line for a Dr. Kivorkian (sp?) death right now. Suicide would be the most common death among Christians. But the reason is that though we profess to go straight to heaven at death...no one really wants to take that chance! And no one can tell me that all Christians really understand the meaning of Paul's words:

Philippians 1:21-26 NIV wrote:For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, so that through my being with you again your joy in Christ Jesus will overflow on account of me.

Don't get me wrong...the Christian does not fear death...but realizes that dying is not good. It is better to live obviously.

The reason sleep is used as a metaphor with death is that once a person falls asleep, morning comes as the very next thought. It feels as though one just closed their eyes and opened them. The passing of time is totally unknown!! Just this morning, I heard my alarm and decided to get a few minutes of sleep more. I closed my eyes and opened them up "a few minutes later." It had been about 40 minutes and I was real late for work. The point being is that upon waking up and opening my eyes, I felt like it had only been moments...when in reality it was much longer.

So it is when someone dies, I believe. The breath leaves...and the dead person knows nothing and is "sleeping" as Christ even put it. The next opening of the eyes the dead righteous will see Christ coming in clouds and it will seem like only a few moments will have passed since their death. A good question to ask one self is why would Christ "torture" Lazarus in bringing him back from the dead? Lazarus had, according to what some claim happens immediately after death, been enjoying heaven for a few days...and to be yanked down from paradise? Does that seem logical? Lazarus was dead. Christ said so himself. He also said he is sleepping...the metaphor. Lazarus knew nothing of the passing of time - in fact Lazarus knew nothing at all!

These are a few points for the belief that even IF the thief on the cross died the same day, the thief is not actually, physically, in heaven with Christ. There are some the scriptures say are in heaven, but the scripture is pretty good at pointing out exactly who.

So all this (and some other points) tells me actually that even if Christ said, "I tell you, today you..." or "I tell you today, you..." the thinking can go both ways. To God a day is like a thousand years, a thousand years is like a day. Also to the sleeping person (or the dead) who know nothing...the passing of a thousand years is like a day.

I hope this helps explain why I believe what I believe.
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