hell is non-existence

Prodigal Son · Post by **Prodigal Son** » Thu May 05, 2005 8:19 pm

another jw question/theory:

hell is simply non-existence rather than a place. i know their have been discussions on hell..but, could this idea have some merit?

AttentionKMartShoppers · Thu May 05, 2005 8:47 pm

Though I do believe hell is a literal place, your idea isn't instantly just dead because of my belief. All things exist because God allows it...so if God were to stop allowing it...well...you figure it out

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Thu May 05, 2005 10:44 pm

It seems that if hell really was non-existance then the Bible would say "those not found in the Book of Life were thrown into darkness and are no more" rather than "were thrown into the lake of fire for eternal suffering."

It's not really clear though; in the end we don't know. It's more aweful than we can imagine, and that's enough for me.

August · Post by **August** » Fri May 06, 2005 7:54 am

I'm not sure I follow, if hell is non-existence why is it punishment? The Bible clearly states that those who are in hell will be aware that they are suffering, but if it's non-existence they cannot be aware.

"There are two aspects to the punishment in hell--the pain of loss and the pain of sense. The pain of loss is the absence of all that is good; most significantly it is separation from God. This does not mean that God is not in hell, it means that those in hell will have no relationship with God and will not experience any His love, grace, or blessing. In other words, they will be cut off from any enjoyment of His spectaculor glory. This is the meaning of the image of darkness used to describe the fate of the lost. Those in hell will experience God's wrath and justice. The pain of sense is the suffering of torment in the body and soul--the addition of undesired punishment. Both of these aspects of hell are conveyed by Jesus in Matthew 25:41, when He says to the lost "Depart from Me [the punishment of loss], you cursed, into the everlasting fire [the punishment of sense--torment] prepared for the devil and his angels." In summary, the punishment of loss is the subtraction of blessing and the punishment of sense is the addition of physical and spiritual torment."
Matt Perman

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Sat May 07, 2005 8:44 pm

If hell were eternal punishment then John 3:16 should read "..and whomever shall believe in Him shall not burn forever, but live in a paradise" instead of "....and whomever shall believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life" It would also read in another part of the Bible "The penalty for sin is eternal suffering being burned up" instead of "The penalty for sin is death". According to hell being a place of eternal suffering, all have eternal life, instead of just believers, which is in direct contradiction to what the Bible says. Also, God is love, torturing people for an infinite amount of time for a finite human life isn't love.

As for the argument it says their punishment will last forever. Isn't being eternally dead lasting forever?

Also, think back to ancient times. What was fire often used for? Burning garbage, annihilating stuff. That is why several times Jesus compares Hell to Gehenna, or the garbage dump of Jerusalem. Some translations, like the James King Bible translate Gehenna as "hellfire" or something similar.

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Sun May 08, 2005 12:03 am

voicingmaster wrote:If hell were eternal punishment then John 3:16 should read "..and whomever shall believe in Him shall not burn forever, but live in a paradise" instead of "....and whomever shall believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life" It would also read in another part of the Bible "The penalty for sin is eternal suffering being burned up" instead of "The penalty for sin is death".

These are decent points you bring up... And they're really the same thing I did with the verses about endless suffering.

So my thinking is that we have to take a few steps back in order to understand how both viewpoints can make sense. The question then becomes, what does it mean to perish? Can you be dead but still exist?

AttentionKMartShoppers · Mon May 09, 2005 12:56 pm

Since God is life, death is necessarily being in the abscence of God (spiritual death). You also have to ignore the verses that talk about gnashing of teeth and that Satan will be chained to a burning lake for 1000 years, released, and tossed in again with everyone else.

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Mon May 09, 2005 2:06 pm

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Since God is life, death is necessarily being in the abscence of God (spiritual death). You also have to ignore the verses that talk about gnashing of teeth and that Satan will be chained to a burning lake for 1000 years, released, and tossed in again with everyone else.

He's actually thrown into the abyss for 1000 years, released, then thrown into the lake of fire which is the eternal hell. I don't think the abyss counts as Hell as we generally think of it.

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Mon May 09, 2005 6:06 pm

You also have to ignore the verses that talk about gnashing of teeth

They can't gnash their teeth before being disintegrated in the fire?

So my thinking is that we have to take a few steps back in order to understand how both viewpoints can make sense. The question then becomes, what does it mean to perish? Can you be dead but still exist?

Since fire is meant to engulf and destroy, I'd say no, one wouldn't still be existing after being thrown into hell.

AttentionKMartShoppers · Tue May 10, 2005 8:26 am

Satan is tossed in a burning lake for a 1000 years without suffering such effects. Spiritual fire may not be completely analogous to physical fire. It may not destroy spirit like physical fire destroys matter.

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Tue May 10, 2005 7:26 pm

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Satan is tossed in a burning lake for a 1000 years without suffering such effects. Spiritual fire may not be completely analogous to physical fire. It may not destroy spirit like physical fire destroys matter.

No, he gets thrown into a bottomless pit for 1000 years. Then cast into the fire and disintegrated with the others.

AttentionKMartShoppers · Tue May 10, 2005 7:46 pm

He's chained to a burning lake for the 1000 years

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Fri May 13, 2005 7:59 pm

Nope, he's definately bound into some sort of Abyss for a thousand years, no mention of fire in that passage.

Proof:
http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?boo ... xt=context

CountryBoy · Post by **CountryBoy** » Sun May 15, 2005 4:23 pm

Well whatever, lake, abyss...He will be gnashing those yeller teeth

AttentionKMartShoppers · Sun May 15, 2005 5:40 pm

OK, first the abyss, then tossed into the lake of fire with all his compadres...doesn't mean he's destroyed.