Evidence for God from Science

Hi.
Being an Atheist myself, I've always wanted to know Christian viewpoints first hand, as I know very few religious people here, and I've only ever been able to get Christian viewpoints from web sites and general opinion.
What is your opinion on homosexual marriage? Abortion? Stem Cell Research?

M0le,

Those are some pretty intense questions just as they are. For a quick answer, I think that I speak for the majority of Christians (maybe not?) that post on this website that we're against the three things you mentioned. Yet, if I were standing in the middle of a highway and kept saying to myself that I didn't believe in 18 wheelers while one was screaming towars me at 65mph - would I be any less roadkill in a few seconds? So, the most important thing is not just the belief held but why and how you've come to hold that belief as truth. Beliefs will change like the passing of a breeze, but truth (by axiomatic definition) will never change.

So, before giving you reasons why I've atleast come to those viewpoints, I'd like to preface your questions with a few of my own.

Is there ever a time/place or example when rape would be considered 'good'?

Would you consider lying, stealing, murder and adultery to be right or wrong?

These two questions will help to explain my Christian viewpoint from a rather unique way. Look forward to your response!

M0le wrote:Hi.
Being an Atheist myself, I've always wanted to know Christian viewpoints first hand, as I know very few religious people here, and I've only ever been able to get Christian viewpoints from web sites and general opinion.
What is your opinion on homosexual marriage? Abortion? Stem Cell Research?

With regards to marriage, I'd like to ask what is "marriage"? What is "marriage" for? What does "marriage" mean? Is it simply love? A commitment? Can't these things be had without marriage? With these question I am just trying to stimulate deeper thinking to see whether homosexual marriage, whether or not legally recognised, actually makes sense. One can't begin to answer whether homosexuals should marry until one develops an understanding about what marriage is for. And in my general experience, people today tend to wonder why heterosexual couples would even get married.

As for abortion, a good start would perhaps be the slideshow at http://www.godandscience.org/abortion/sld001.html. And for stem cell research: http://www.godandscience.org/slideshow/stemcell.html. As a Christian, I would advocate everything said within these.

Kurieuo.

Is there ever a time/place or example when rape would be considered 'good'?

Would you consider lying, stealing, murder and adultery to be right or wrong?

1: To the best of my knowledge, I don't think there would ever be a time when rape would be considered 'good', unless the said rape somehow saved the victims life. Or are you asking if sometime in human history rape was considered acceptable?
2: For lying and stealing, it depends on the context. If you lie because you've done something terrible and simply want to escape punishment, then I would probably consider that wrong. If however, you lied to spare somebody's feelings, or if it's to protect something or someone from another person, ie:
"Do you know where John is?! I'm going to kill him for flirting with my girlfriend!"
"No."
Murder and Adultery are an entirely different matter, of course, and I don't believe that Adultery is acceptable, from either man or woman, and unless it is in self-defence, then murder would be wrong. If it was in self defence it wouldn't, of course, be actually called murder, but it's still the taking of a human life.

Those are some great slides, Kurieuo. There's so much stuff on the GodAndScience.org website, it will take me a good year to go through it all.

M0le,

Thanks for answering those questions.

1: To the best of my knowledge, I don't think there would ever be a time when rape would be considered 'good', unless the said rape somehow saved the victims life. Or are you asking if sometime in human history rape was considered acceptable?

I don't think rape was ever considered acceptable in human history but I have done no studies on this so don't take my word for it.

Would you consider either of the following statements to be absolutely true?

"Rape is wrong."

"Adultery is wrong."

If no, do you think there is any statement that we could make asserting absolute truth? Remember, saying that there are no absoulte truths is an absolute statement.

I'll give you my views next post.

M0le wrote:Hi.
Being an Atheist myself, I've always wanted to know Christian viewpoints first hand, as I know very few religious people here, and I've only ever been able to get Christian viewpoints from web sites and general opinion.
What is your opinion on homosexual marriage? Abortion? Stem Cell Research?

I have often wondered about homosexual marriage. The end result is that I do not care. From what I remember, Peter stated that gay sex is immoral, not necessarily homosexuality. If it is a sin, it is the sinner's responsibility to control himself, not mine. If the government wishes to allow it, and it turns out to be wrong, let God judge them. Their marriage(or "marriage" if you will) does not hurt anybody, so the best thing for me would be to stay out of it. There are far worse things about society that I need to worry about anyway.


On abortion, I am strictly against it. Biologically, an embryo is both human and alive, and killing it is murder. You should NOT have to be a Christian to realise how wrong this is. I particualrly hate it when people use the "It's a woman's right to" line. It's not. That's like saying that it's my right to kill somebody because they inconvenience me. If you believe in ideals like this, then I believe the Church of Satan would more than welcome you among their midst.

On stem cell research, I believe that adult stem cell research does not kill anybody, so I guess that's ok. Killing embryos for it however is no different than abortion, so see my above point.

Mastermind wrote:I have often wondered about homosexual marriage. The end result is that I do not care. From what I remember, Peter stated that gay sex is immoral, not necessarily homosexuality. If it is a sin, it is the sinner's responsibility to control himself, not mine. If the government wishes to allow it, and it turns out to be wrong, let God judge them. Their marriage(or "marriage" if you will) does not hurt anybody, so the best thing for me would be to stay out of it. There are far worse things about society that I need to worry about anyway.

Mastermind,

I would suggest checking out Romans 1:19-32 and maybe even a little into Romans 2. If, as a Christian, you care about the 20 or so things that are listed around vs. 29 just remember that Paul prefaced everything here with a lead in about homosexuality (vs. 26+27). I think that if we are to care about things like murder, disobedience to parents, malicious, envious, and deceitful doings, we should care about homosexuality (even if only for the reason that it's within the same passage of scripture).

It still does not claim homosexuality in itself is a sin. Giving in to it is however(I usually go with the theory that most of the time it isn't just a lifestyle choice, for reasons I will elaborate on if you want). We all have our sinful impules that we must combat. If the government chooses to observe gay marriage, there isn't much I can do about it(although for the government's sake, it would be better if they just call it a "civil union"). If, however, the government wants to force churches to accept it, then I would be 100% against it. There are many things that God forbits and are prefectly legal(like adultery). If society wants to go down the path of Evil, all I can do is try to teach it the true path. Much like Newton's laws however, using force will result in an equal and opposite reaction.

Mastermind wrote:It still does not claim homosexuality in itself is a sin. Giving in to it is however(I usually go with the theory that most of the time it isn't just a lifestyle choice, for reasons I will elaborate on if you want). We all have our sinful impules that we must combat. If the government chooses to observe gay marriage, there isn't much I can do about it(although for the government's sake, it would be better if they just call it a "civil union"). If, however, the government wants to force churches to accept it, then I would be 100% against it. There are many things that God forbits and are prefectly legal(like adultery). If society wants to go down the path of Evil, all I can do is try to teach it the true path. Much like Newton's laws however, using force will result in an equal and opposite reaction.

Being a homosexual is no more sinful that being a heterosexual.

We are all sinners nonetheless.

However, the acts of homosexuality are sinful and an abomination...sins directly pointed out as sin.
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but shouldn't abortion be okay in some cases. i personally believe that abortion is an okay thing, given that it's not just used as an excuse. these include:
1. rape - in the case of rape, i believe abortion is acceptable. put yourself in their shoes. you've just been raped. however it's been done, it's not your fault, but somehow you fall pregnant. now do you really want to be aware that this child that was produced is out their, or with you, reminding you of what happened? (and who could truthfully say, that they wouldn't think this way. we're human, we're flawed, and it's going to cross our minds at least a few times if this happened to us - males excluded)

2. medical complications - i know God put us on this earth to serve a purpose. but what if we fall pregnant, what if your partner falls pregnant and it gets stuck in the fallopian tubes. is it right then to have an abortion? or do you just let her/yourself die? but what happens if, in some medical case, when you give birth to this child, it won't live because of your genetic makeup (in some cases, bubs have an increased chance of getting pneumonia in the womb). what then? have we really served our purpose or is this a waste of two human lives when one could be spared?

3. love=money - given you have an "accident" if you will, and somehow you fall pregnant, but you're not able to support it in some way (not enough money, not in the right position relationship wise, you can't give it the love and attention it deserves), and you can't see yourself giving it up for adoption (or it's against what you've been brought up by etc), in my personal opinion, if i wasn't able to give my child the attention, the love, the support (money, emotionally) and furthermore, the education it needs to make it out in this big nasty world, i would have an abortion. i don't think it's fare on the child to be brought up in poverty when, if i apply myself, i could get much further. i am not saying you stuff up your future being a teen mom as they put it, but you limit your doors to open. your child might not get the love and education that it needs.

i suppose it's up to the person and their decisions morally and ethically. at the end of the day.

as for homosexuals. i don't have a problem with them. i have many friends that are homosexual and are fantastic people. they're wonderful, insightful and i couldn't imagine life without them. as for how i view them in a christian sense, the bible tells me not to judge, to accept people for who and what they are, and that's what i do. as for marriage, i don't see why not. it's just a confirmation of love, the bond shared between two people and the love they share being confirmed. i think it's beautiful and i fully indorse it.

as for stem cell research, there's guidelines for the use of it. personally, i think it would be a great scientific advancement using stem cells for research. although, you have to draw the line as to: what you're doing will and is furthering humanity; it's not being used stupidly or irresponsibly; it's not being used to damage humanity.

as for rape. rape is never right. rape is horrible, disgusting and degrading. it's something no human should do or be put through and i believe that's the bible's view on that. rape is wrong, no matter what.

this is all i've got.

*moose over and out*

moose wrote:3. love=money ... i don't think it's fare on the child to be brought up in poverty when, if i apply myself, i could get much further.

I disagree with a lot of what you said, but I disagree most with this particular statement. Poverty is the absolute worst reason NOT to have a child. That life is not yours, it's God's and you have no right to take it, esspecially on these grounds. As God has testified:

Luke 6:20-23
Looking at his disciples, he said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh. Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets."

Moose some responses:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all cases (just like you'd assert rape is wrong in all cases). Therefore, like rape, it wouldn't matter what was the circumstance or personal experience, the moral absolute truth would be no. Scripture makes it clear that God knows us even before we are conceived in our mother's womb (Jeremiah 1). In Psalms it also says a similar things that you should really check out:
Psalms 22:9-10
Psalms 58:3
Psalms 71:6
Psalms 110:3
Psalms 127:3
Psalms 139:13

Those verses just really give glory to God that He already had our paths thought out even before we came out of our mother's belly. That means when a baby is aborted, it's cutting a life off from existence on this earth - a life that God sees as important.
I was actually thinking of the question, "what if my future wife gets raped?" a couple days ago. How awful a thought that would be or to have it actually come to pass!! I thought over it and decided that if my wife were to be raped then I would not abort the child. I think the child would be from the Lord and He had a purpose over the entire situation (Romans 8:28). Who knows, I could end up having the opportunity of raising up the next apostle Paul all because God works in miraculous/mysterious ways. Just read from the prophet Hosea in the Old Testament. God had him marry a whore who repeatedly committed adultery with other men. I'd really recommend reading that, Moose, it will put a whole new perspective on how you think of the Lord.

"I suppose it's up to the person and their decisions morally and ethically, at the end of the day."

Be careful here, remember the situation of rape (something that doesn't depend on the person or situation - it's wrong no matter what!). I'd assert that there are moral absolutes we should all follow regardless of our own desires or circumstances.

Hope I challenged you a bit.
Blessings in the Lord Jesus.

true, it isn't 100% mine, but half of it is.

being made up of half female, half male chromosomes, spending 9 months inside the mother, being raised, breast feed, by the mother, isn't the child ultimately "a gift from God" and isn't it therefore, as gifts go, your's now to keep?

i had this conversation with my friend Chi the other day. we were arguing whether or not you should keep a fetus who was, ultimately, the product of rape. it was brought up (and referrs to PremoMD's comment), what about the view of your wife? what if you're views conflict? or what if it's your girlfriend who falls pregnant due to rape. what now? what if she's long term? what if you havn't known her for long? and would you really be able to accept the child as your own? or would you forever be questioning? what if the original father comes out and asks for his child (as most rapes are committed by those who the victim knows)?

and can i just add, scientifically, it's not considered a baby. it's a fetus. yes, a living form, but not a baby, not a child, not a human being.

as for:
<quote>"I'd assert that there are moral absolutes we should all follow regardless of our own desires or circumstances. "</quote>

i agree whole-heartedly. we should recognise that there are moral absolutes and that we should follow them, regardless. yet these moral absolutes are different for every person (just as the bible is interpretted differently for every person.

on that, i must take leave. i have class

homosexual marriage?
To me, there is no such thing. Marriage is between a man and a woman, and homosexuals are men who lust after men/women who lust after women, so they can't be married, if you think about it. And when you refer to love, realize there are different kinds-agape (God love), eros (love between a man and a woman), and phileo (brotherly love), so my thing is, do homosexuals love each other, or lust after each other....

Abortion?

Taking the life of another human life is never right. I'm pro-choice, though. I believe a woman has to choice to have sex and risk the chance of having a baby.

Rape? Put the child up for adoption, but don't kill a life because it might interfere with your life.
Medical complication? If the mother is going to die, then the baby is obviously going to die-so, it's not really sacrificing one for the other-it'll be saving the only life that doctors can save (but, your example is somewhat out of there)

love=money? Put the child up for adoption if you're not up to taking the responsibility of having sex...but, the last I read, abortions cost $5000 by the good doctors....(I don't think "doctors" who perform abortions are doctors...they're legalized murderers-a doctor is supposed to save a life-and they're breaking Hippocrates' creed, who was the prototype doctor.)


Stem Cell Research?

If it's embryonic stem cell research, against-because it involves killing a human life. If it's adult stem cells (such as umbillical cord), there's nothing wrong with that.

Thanks KMart - you're a great help.

Moose - the definition of a moral abolute is not relient upon the person. It is an absolute given by God (like killing or stealing or raping or having sex with an animal). It doesn't matter who the person is or what they consider to be moral absolutes, it applies to everyone regardless. It's a "straight across the board" type of thing.

You can definately make up moral absolutes - say Charles Manson made up an absolute that kiling people was good. Well, he is wrong b/c God has already given us an absolute over that subject (see Exodus 21).

I'm not quite sure how Bible interpretation might play into this - maybe a good verse to look at would be 2 Pet 1:20 . There are definately things you can't interpret yourself. That's what I'd consider revelation from God instead of interpretation from man. I think there's a big difference.