Evidence for God from Science

What are your views on it?

Veronica ><>

i think condoms are cool. they prevent the sperm and egg from joining. once they join i think you have a human being. other forms of contraception allow this union and then destroy the embryo. i think that's wrong.

I believe in relying on God and not on contraception. If God wants you to have a baby you will have a baby, and if you are a Christian who is trusting Him for your finances and plot in life including having children or not, then if it's not the right time for a child He would not give you one. God is the one who closes and opens wombs and imparts life. If you trust Him and want only His will regarding this, He will only give you a child only when He sees fit to.

kateliz wrote:I believe in relying on God and not on contraception. If God wants you to have a baby you will have a baby, and if you are a Christian who is trusting Him for your finances and plot in life including having children or not, then if it's not the right time for a child He would not give you one. God is the one who closes and opens wombs and imparts life. If you trust Him and want only His will regarding this, He will only give you a child only when He sees fit to.

Do you mind that most Christians, at least in developed countries, approve and use contraception?

I'm concerned about their lack of trust in God and desire for only His will. That's why they use contraception. But, to be frank, belief in free-will brings this about. How can they trust God will only give them a child if He wants them to have one if it's ultimately about whether they want to have one or not? Lack of belief in sovereignty, perpetuated by belief in free-will. That's what it comes down to in my opinion. They don't believe God can control conception, which is very sad. For pity's sake, don't they read their Bibles?

And the problem is that God, although doing as He sees fit, will not bless people who don't trust Him in matters of conception nearly as much as those who do! If I ever get married I know that God would control every aspect of that because I trust Him to. I'd willingly and trustingly hand it over to Him completely. Those who don't would see "evidence" of God not being sovereign in this area.

kateliz wrote:I'm concerned about their lack of trust in God and desire for only His will. That's why they use contraception. But, to be frank, belief in free-will brings this about. How can they trust God will only give them a child if He wants them to have one if it's ultimately about whether they want to have one or not? Lack of belief in sovereignty, perpetuated by belief in free-will. That's what it comes down to in my opinion. They don't believe God can control conception, which is very sad. For pity's sake, don't they read their Bibles?

I actually find reading the Bible Matthew 4:5-7. Should we jump off of buildings just because God in his sovereignty could choose to save us? No, God does not usually interfere with physics even though He could.

Health class is enough to tell you that there is some physics operating in conception as well. Just because God has performed miracles regarding conception in the past does not mean He always performs them now.

If God ordains all conception, how do you explain teenage pregnancy?

kateliz wrote:And the problem is that God, although doing as He sees fit, will not bless people who don't trust Him in matters of conception nearly as much as those who do! If I ever get married I know that God would control every aspect of that because I trust Him to. I'd willingly and trustingly hand it over to Him completely. Those who don't would see "evidence" of God not being sovereign in this area.

I don't think that "trusting" necessarily means not using contraception. You may want to approach it more like choosing a college, a career, or a spouse. Pray for God's will and seek it with all your heart. You can trust him, as you say. You may then want to decide to use contraception if you don't feel led to raise children at whatever point in your life.

I am still single as well (only being 18 and all), but I think that some of your logic is bad.

Why would you limit God in this?

It's not like Jesus' jumping off that point on the temple or like jumping off a cliff. I see those analogies as bad logic. It is not testing God or playing games with Him! It's leaving it in His Hands. You do not actively do anything, instead, you don't actively do anything! Which is better, to just trust, or to actively hinder or allow while praying, not trusting God to control without these measures? Why not just trust? There is nothing wrong with trusting God on this! Rather than constantly asking God if it's time to have another child or not I'd just leave it up to Him, and for my part just constantly trust!

You seem to have a thing against my opinion, and I do not understand it. Could you trust God in this yourself? Do you believe God could do such a thing, even apart from "special miracles"? Or, as it seems you've stated, do you believe God leaves it up to physics and only gets involved in "special" cases? If I got married tomorrow and practiced my just trust method, what do you think would happen? That God would just leave it up to physics and tell me, "Sorry, you've got it wrong! You can't trust me in this unless you use contraception"?

jerickson wrote:If God ordains all conception, how do you explain teenage pregnancy?

kateliz wrote:
And the problem is that God, although doing as He sees fit, will not bless people who don't trust Him in matters of conception nearly as much as those who do! Those who don't would see "evidence" of God not being sovereign in this area.

You put my answer right after your question. My sister conceived when she was fourteen and gave birth at fifteen. Although it's been a very bumpy road, anyone knowing her could easily see the purpose behind God having my nephew be born. She picked herself up for the most part. And if she hadn't... well, that's not something one would like to think of. She was on a very bad path, and her having that child turned her around. Yes, it was the Hand of God that had her get pregnant so young. (She was a Christian that whole while too, so that helped even more.)

kateliz wrote:Why would you limit God in this?

I wouldn't consider this "limiting God".

kateliz wrote:It's not like Jesus' jumping off that point on the temple or like jumping off a cliff. I see those analogies as bad logic. It is not testing God or playing games with Him! It's leaving it in His Hands. You do not actively do anything, instead, you don't actively do anything!

So having sex is "not doing anything"?

Read 1 Corinthians 7:5. Would abstaining from sex for a period be "not trusting God"? Contraception seems analagous, even though the purpose is different from what Paul discusses in the passage.

kateliz wrote:Which is better, to just trust, or to actively hinder or allow while praying, not trusting God to control without these measures? Why not just trust? There is nothing wrong with trusting God on this! Rather than constantly asking God if it's time to have another child or not I'd just leave it up to Him, and for my part just constantly trust!

I am not convinced that trusting requires that you avoid contraception. You can pray for His will and trust what He tells you. Trusting does not always involve passivity. Do you just spend money on every whim, trusting that God will provide for your finances? No, you take responsibility in addition to trusting God. And hopefully you trust in God to give you wisdom on what to do.

kateliz wrote:You seem to have a thing against my opinion, and I do not understand it. Could you trust God in this yourself? Do you believe God could do such a thing, even apart from "special miracles"?

I could trust God in this. I think that by definition divine intervention that interferes with the laws of physics constitutes a "special miracle", however. But while God could hypothetically do so, I just don't know that he actively would.

kateliz wrote:Or, as it seems you've stated, do you believe God leaves it up to physics and only gets involved in "special" cases? If I got married tomorrow and practiced my just trust method, what do you think would happen? That God would just leave it up to physics and tell me, "Sorry, you've got it wrong! You can't trust me in this unless you use contraception"?

I didn't say that it would be wrong to not use contraception. You would probably have children as physics would normally have it, and God would provide for you to raise those children. If you feel led to not use contraception, go right on ahead. But I was simply pointing out that others might feel led to use it.

Either using or not using contraception could be trusting.

kateliz wrote:My sister conceived when she was fourteen and gave birth at fifteen. Although it's been a very bumpy road, anyone knowing her could easily see the purpose behind God having my nephew be born. She picked herself up for the most part. And if she hadn't... well, that's not something one would like to think of. She was on a very bad path, and her having that child turned her around. Yes, it was the Hand of God that had her get pregnant so young. (She was a Christian that whole while too, so that helped even more.)

Well, ever heard the phrase, "When life gives you lemons, make lemonade."? God is particularly good at that. He finds a way to bring good out of any situation, even one that was bad to begin with. I am sure that there are people who came to Christ as a result of the September 11 terrorist attacks. Does this mean that God wanted the terrorist attacks to happen? I don't think so. However, he brought good out of evil. This sounds analagous to what happened with your sister. He brought two new lives! (Your sister's changed life and your nephew)

Okay, okay. Maybe I just prefer the no-contraception trust method. I wouldn't have a problem with a couple using contraception if they truly did wait on and trust in God for His will because maybe it's not a matter of trusting God's ability to regulate conception, but a matter of belief in how God works regarding our actions and His own.

I know that He would actively regulate conception for myself if I trusted Him to. I have no doubt about that. He's taught me to rely on Him in this type of way with many other areas in my life. If you don't know that He'd do that for you, although knowing He's able to, then that is not a matter of trust, and so I wouldn't find fault.

I think our difference in beliefs is whether God purposely allows or causes every conception to occur. I fully believe there are verses on this, but can't yet find them.

kateliz wrote:I think our difference in beliefs is whether God purposely allows or causes every conception to occur. I fully believe there are verses on this, but can't yet find them.

You probably mean verses like these. The relevant verses look to me like specific references to particular miracles God has done. They certainly establish that God is capable of controlling conception. However, they do not answer the question of whether God still does this today or not.

I think there's a line to walk, and I think it's different for everyone. Some of that depends on one's spiritual maturity. Remember that even Peter sank in the water.

Yes we can trust God, but I also think that God made us intelligent for a reason. He expects wisdom, not utter foolishness. Suppose we are to be helping at a soup kitchen in an hour or so. Should we just step outside the door and pray for God to sweep us up and drop us at the kitchen? Of course not - God expects us to be reasonable and to use what He has given us as we live life. In that case, using a car or taking the bus would be appropriate.

In the same way, I see modern medicine as something else that God has given us to use in our lives. And besides Kateliz, I could flip this on you no problem. I could say that I'll use what God has given us, but if it's God's will that I have a child, then He will have no problem in causing conception even if I'm using contraception. So I have just as much trust in God as you, but possibly a little more wisdom in managing my daily life.

I don't mean this to come off as though we shouldn't seek God and His will. But I think God expects us to be reasonable.

kateliz wrote: I'm concerned about their lack of trust in God and desire for only His will. That's why they use contraception.

Most Christians in developed countries lack trust in God? Most Protestant ministers have no problem with contraception, because it's not the same thing as abortion. If no one used contraception, we'd have massive overpopulation.

kateliz wrote: Okay, okay. Maybe I just prefer the no-contraception trust method.
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Pedaling backwards...

ochotseat wrote:

kateliz wrote: I'm concerned about their lack of trust in God and desire for only His will. That's why they use contraception.

Most Christians in developed countries lack trust in God? Most Protestant ministers have no problem with contraception, because it's not the same thing as abortion. If no one used contraception, we'd have massive overpopulation.

kateliz wrote: Okay, okay. Maybe I just prefer the no-contraception trust method.
.

Pedaling backwards...

Massive overpopulation, or more people to find saving grace in Jesus Christ?

Dan wrote: Massive overpopulation, or more people to find saving grace in Jesus Christ?

Maybe both, but if overpopulation gets out of hand, humanity will not be able to survive. Maybe that'll be the point Jesus comes back. Who knows.

I can see why the Vatican opposes contraception, since God may want that life to happen. Then again, God may have allowed us to invent contraception to prevent us from destroying ourselves. Only God knows.

jerickson wrote:You probably mean verses like these. The relevant verses look to me like specific references to particular miracles God has done. They certainly establish that God is capable of controlling conception. However, they do not answer the question of whether God still does this today or not.

No, although the frequency of these verses and lack of any verse saying that someone can be born apart from the will of God do seem to suggest something! There is a particular verse, (yes, a magical one to in one fell swoop prove my theological stance,) that I came across once in the Old Testament that directly stated, (this is all if my memory serves me correctly,) that every baby born or conceived or something like that, was so directly because of God's will for it. If I found this magical verse, some of you here might have to agree that as a result contraception would be based on a lack of trust in God and/or desire for His will, and so prove my original point.

Try your only-physics on this!:

Psalms 139:13
For you formed my inmost being.
You knit me together in my mother's womb.

God, then is the one in charge of the science behind birth. He performs all of the scientific actions Himself! How then can you have conception without Him? He'd have to be a reluctant particpant if conception can occur without His consent.

Here's some other verses I found under your "these" title:

Ecclesiastes 11:5
As you don't know what is the way of the wind,
Nor how the bones grow in the womb of her who is with child;
Even so you don't know the work of God who does all.

Isaiah 44:2
Thus says Yahweh who made you, and formed you from the womb....

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and he who formed you from the womb: I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who stretches forth the heavens alone; who spreads abroad the earth (who is with me?)

Isaiah 46:3
Listen to me, house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, that have been borne by me from their birth, that have been carried from the womb....

Felgar wrote:I could say that I'll use what God has given us, but if it's God's will that I have a child, then He will have no problem in causing conception even if I'm using contraception. So I have just as much trust in God as you, but possibly a little more wisdom in managing my daily life.

I stated that earlier, however that wisdom would depend on whether God controls every conception or not.

But either way, I'd still trust Him for my own self, knowing that He would indeed work with me that way. Every single thing in my life I can see with clarity has been orchastrated by God... and that more than just working it for my good. This He has and is revealing to me constantly. And the more I trust Him for my circumstances the more blessings He has accompany with those circumstances. It would be the same way with child-bearing if I were to get married.[/i]