Evidence for God from Science

I have looked over the entire Bible several times to find out if it says that Satan was ever an angelic being. I find no definitive proof of this to be the case. In fact Jesus says that the Devil was a murderer and a liar "from the beginning". Can anyone help me here? Or have we only assumed out of context and by human tradition that Satan was an angel first?

fedexguy wrote:I have looked over the entire Bible several times to find out if it says that Satan was ever an angelic being. I find no definitive proof of this to be the case. In fact Jesus says that the Devil was a murderer and a liar "from the beginning". Can anyone help me here? Or have we only assumed out of context and by human tradition that Satan was an angel first?

2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Another one was

Eze 28:12 through to Eze 28:18

there are problems with all of those verses that you gave to support the view that Satan was an angel for certain. the 1st says that Satan will masquerade as an angel of light, not that he is one. The second one is a non-translated title of royalty in the KJV that is translated in all other versions I have researched in, and the scripture is a prophecy of the fall of the Kingdom of Babylon. If you will cross reference the title of Lucifer it is the same title that Jesus is given in Revelation of Morning Star(a near Eastern title of Kingship). In the Revelation verses it says that Satan was a serpent and a dragon not an angel. And lest we forget in the greek language the term angelos is translated as both angel and messenger, so are these actually angels of Satan or messengers of Satan(I believe that Paul has a messenger from Satan in his flesh did he not) and lastly once again the scriptures in Ezekiel are clearly addressed to the King of Tyre and the description of this Kingdom in the previous chapters show why these descriptions are used in an apocalyptic nature

Well then, what is your interpretation of the nature of satan? We know he is the deceiver. We know that when he lies he speaks his native tongue. We know he comes to lie, cheat, and destroy. None of that sheds light on his history.

If you will not accept the validity of the verses provided, then the burden of proof is on you to show a viable biblical alternative to that intrepretation.

So let's see what you've got.

Did God create the adversary? this is the meaning of the name Satan and Devil. If god created man with a free will he had to have the choice to do His will or to do otherwise, if there were no otherwise what could man have done but the will of God? Biblically he was said to be the serpent of ancient days e.g. Gen3:1, Rev12:9 Rev20:2. Also referred to as the dragon in Rev20:2. Genesis seems to indicate that he was among the beasts that God created if we look at his descriptions there(and note the curse of God upon him). As you noted there are numerous passages that do note his very nature which does seem appropriate since I do agree that we are dealing with the spirit being here and not a literal snake or dragon but maybe Satanophonies or appearances such as the appearances of God and Jesus in the Old Testament. Lastly for now, Jesus very plainly says that what Satan is he was from the beginning in John 8:44. These are why I question the validity of saying that Satan was ever an angel of God. In the Love of Christ, Fedexguy

My understanding is that Satan fell from Heaven before we were created. So from our perspective, he was like that from the very beginning. That explains Jesus' quote and also explains how our choice to not follow God was always going to be to follow Satan.

From the perspective that Satan fell, God didn't need to create something to stand against Him. We could have done that on our own, and in doing so we become just like Satan - that is, we become what God is not.

The above two comments help fill out why it makes sense that Satan fell and how that interpretation fits into other theology. Now, the main issue I have with Satan not having been given free will, is that I CANNOT reconcile a god that would create a being destined to damnation with the God of Love and mercy that I believe in. It's for the same reason that I absolutely reject the notion that we as people don't have free will. God created us to love Him and be loved by Him; so any creation that never had the capacity to love Him has no purpose and therefore I believe that according to His nature, would not be created in the first place.

But maybe you have no problem with not having free will. If that's the case, then we might as well stop discussing Satan and start discussing this much more important understanding of our Lord.

fedexguy wrote:there are problems with all of those verses that you gave to support the view that Satan was an angel for certain. the 1st says that Satan will masquerade as an angel of light, not that he is one. The second one is a non-translated title of royalty in the KJV that is translated in all other versions I have researched in, and the scripture is a prophecy of the fall of the Kingdom of Babylon. If you will cross reference the title of Lucifer it is the same title that Jesus is given in Revelation of Morning Star(a near Eastern title of Kingship). In the Revelation verses it says that Satan was a serpent and a dragon not an angel. And lest we forget in the greek language the term angelos is translated as both angel and messenger, so are these actually angels of Satan or messengers of Satan(I believe that Paul has a messenger from Satan in his flesh did he not) and lastly once again the scriptures in Ezekiel are clearly addressed to the King of Tyre and the description of this Kingdom in the previous chapters show why these descriptions are used in an apocalyptic nature

So the First Verse is not valid because it talks about SATAN masquerading as an Angel of Light. You would automatically think he was the Angel of Darkness!

Wrong!! Lucifer is not given the Same Reference as Jesus. Jesus is the Morning Star but Lucifer is

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Here is the one you are looking for

2Cr 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

As for the Verses in Ezekiel if you read it correctly it was a Lamentation to the King of Tyre

Lament Means: a song, poem or other piece of writing which expresses sadness about someone's death:
to express sadness and regret about:

First Sentence of the Lamentation
"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; " The KING OF TYRE was definately not there!
The Next part of 28:13 every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
This talks of what Satan an Angel was Created for!

28:14
Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Satan was an Anointed Cherub.

28:15
Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
He was perfect until Greed or iniquity was found in his heart

28:16
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Here he was cast out of the Mountain of God!

28:17
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Because of Lucifers Beauty he thought so High of himself. The rest of the verse has Parallels to Revelations

28:18
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Prophetic Verse

Here are some more Scriptures

Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Calgary, not disrepectful in any way at all, but you should be very careful when you read the KJV in a wooden literal sense. The things in Ezekiel are not wooden literalism in any nature. If you really want to use this as a proof text how about this one from the KJV about what God created? Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. There are several other verses in the KJV the talk about God and His taking credit for EVIL, but I think that most if not all newer translations have taken a little different view and translated the same Hebrew word that is translated EVIL as calamity or trials. They only do this for the same reason I would, it is hard to think that God actually created evil. If the Lamentation is to the King of Tyre(very clear) why move Satan in? Is the Graden literal or is it an allusion to the perfect beauty of Tyre from the previous chapter, the part about musical instruments is also mistranslated, it should be sockets and settings(as in crowns and jewlry) I only believe that interpreting should be from the clear and obvious, not dark and murky first. Thanks you for your response, and I will go through the others very deeply and I really am not too worried about all of this Satan thing, I just think it is interesting how the tale has developed in time is it not?

P.S.S. I am not trying to blame the Devil for my failures as related to God I have taken full credit for all of those things. I did not need any help from him to sin myself right the feet of my Lord Jesus Christ. And I am sure not going to complain about Adam's sin being put over to me either, since if I do this what right would I have then to accpet the Righteousness of Jesus being placed over me. God bless all with the life of Jesus being lived through you as you receive your salvation by faith in the completeness and eternal nature of the work of Christ, not any of our own.

on the subject of the name Lucifer, it is translated morning star in the NIV as is a probable rendering due to the fact that Morning Star IS a title given to kings in the near east. I did not invent the thought that this was a title given to Jesus since he is King of kings and Lord of lords it was appropriate that he was given this title of Morning Star in the Revelation. I once again implore you to look at the context of scripture including the meaning to the immediate reader and the idioms they were familiar with before we import our 21st century meaning to these words.

fedexguy, I want to encourage you in your quest for truth on this. I have often found intrepretations of prophecies and things like that kind of odd, and the verses used on Satan confuse me in the same way. I sympathize with your search, and am eager as to what will be revealed from it. Maybe I'll do my own research later!

It is always a good thing to doubt what we've been taught and seek the real truth in the Bible!

There is not that many Clear References to Satan However. What do you believe he is? Is he Powerful? Is he Spirit of Physical? How do you explain the References of Satan and his Angels?

Thanks


In Christ

I'd like to throw in my 2 cents if I could (although the value of my input may depreciate with some after they read it)...

I do not find any Scriptural evidence that Satan was once an angel. That does not mean that he is or isn't...or was or wasn't... we just simply aren't told. There are some things that God has chosen not to reveal to us (like what Jesus was writing on the ground John 8:7).I do think that God created him, but not in the state that he has chosen to be in or the persona that he has chosen to be. One thing is for sure, his course seems to be set, and there is no turning back...

With respect to the passage in Ezekial, I think we need to look at the broader context. The lamentation against Tyre comes right smack in the middle of prophecies against other nations:

Ezekial 25:1-2 - Ammon
Ezekial 25:8-9 - Moab
Ezekial 25:12-13 - Edom
Ezekial 25:15-16 - Philistia
Ezekial 28:20-21 - Sidon
Ezekial 29:1-2 - Egypt

I do not think that Ezekial 28 is a reference to Satan. I agree with the fedexguy, that the text clearly defines the subject (BTW, where's that package I ordered?). Ez. 28:2 clearly defines the leader of Tyre as a man. If you go on in the passage you come to verse 19 which ends "and you will cease to be forever." It clearly echos Ez. 27:36 and Revelation certainly paints a different picture if that is a literal description of the end of Satan. Also, the garden of Eden is often alluded to in prophetic Scripture to depict a contrast (Isaiah 51:3; Ezekial 36:35; Joel 2:3), and so too here with regard to the richness of Tyre.

With respect to the Devil and his angels, the only Scripture reference I find with this phrase is in Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 12:9, which only speaks of the finality of them both. Just a different perspective to throw out there - I think that Christ clearly states, if you are not for Him, you are against Him (Luke 11:23), so in one sense, the angels that did not keep their place but were kept in darkness (Jude1:6), would be his (Satan's) angels. I'm not sure the concept of Satan with his roving band of dastardly angels is straight from the Scriptures either.

thanks, to all who responded I am still not sure whether Satan was ever an angel(as you can probably deduce I am tending to the no side) but I do know for certain that he is a created spirit that was able to enter the dwelling of God (e.g. Job) since we know that the triune God created all of this from nothing for His own glory. I am also pretty certain that the being cast from Heaven in Revelation 12 is a past occurence that became realized in this time-space realm at the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is so amazing to know that the One who saved us is the one who protects us from the very Satan that we seem to be so afraid of in these days. In reality when you are saved and have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit Satan no longer has any dominion or real power over any of us. The only power he has is what we give him by not grasping the Truth that the very spirit of Christ is in us to lead us into all truth and is our strength. I truly pray that God will use this little question session to help us all take hold of Him and allow Christ to live through us ... God bless all and never be afraid to question the human teachers and believe always the Holy teacher who is revealed by His Holy Spirit fedexguy