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creation in the 2nd book of enoch

Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:58 am
by Deborah
Chapter 28

The week in which God showed Enoch all his wisdom and power, throughout all the seven days, how he created all the heavenly and earthly forces and all moving things even down to man
1 And then I made firm the heavenly circle, and made that the lower water which is under heaven collect itself together, into one whole, and that the chaos become dry, and it became so.
2 Out of the waves I created rock hard and big, and from the rock I piled up the dry, and the dry I called earth, and the midst of the earth I called abyss, that is to say the bottomless, I collected the sea in one place and bound it together with a yoke.
3 And I said to the sea: Behold I give you your eternal limits, and you shalt not break loose from your component parts.
4 Thus I made fast the firmament. This day I called me the first-created [Sunday].
Chapter 29

Then it became evening, and then again morning, and it was the second [Monday]; The fiery essence
1 And for all the heavenly troops I imaged the image and essence of fire, and my eye looked at the very hard, firm rock, and from the gleam of my eye the lightning received its wonderful nature, which is both fire in water and water in fire, and one does not put out the other, nor does the one dry up the other, therefore the lightning is brighter than the sun, softer than water and firmer than hard rock.
2 And from the rock I cut off a great fire, and from the fire I created the orders of the incorporeal ten troops of angels, and their weapons are fiery and their raiment a burning flame, and I commanded that each one should stand in his order.
3 And one from out the order of angels, having turned away with the order that was under him, conceived an impossible thought, to place his throne higher than the clouds above the earth, that he might become equal in rank to my power.
4 And I threw him out from the height with his angels, and he was flying in the air continuously above the bottomless.
Chapter 30

And then I created all the heavens, and the third day was, [Tuesday]
1 On the third day I commanded the earth to make grow great and fruitful trees, and hills, and seed to sow, and I planted Paradise, and enclosed it, and placed as armed guardians flaming angels, and thus I created renewal.
2 Then came evening, and came morning the fourth day.
3 [Wednesday]. On the fourth day I commanded that there should be great lights on the heavenly circles.
4 On the first uppermost circle I placed the stars, Kruno, and on the second Aphrodit, on the third Aris, on the fifth Zoues, on the sixth Ermis, on the seventh lesser the moon, and adorned it with the lesser stars.
5 And on the lower I placed the sun for the illumination of day, and the moon and stars for the illumination of night.
6 The sun that it should go according to each constellation, twelve, and I appointed the succession of the months and their names and lives, their thunderings, and their hour-markings, how they should succeed.
7 Then evening came and morning came the fifth day.
8 [Thursday]. On the fifth day I commanded the sea, that it should bring forth fishes, and feathered birds of many varieties, and all animals creeping over the earth, going forth over the earth on four legs, and soaring in the air, male sex and female, and every soul breathing the spirit of life.
9 And there came evening, and there came morning the sixth day.
10 [Friday]. On the sixth day I commanded my wisdom to create man from seven consistencies: one, his flesh from the earth; two, his blood from the dew; three, his eyes from the sun; four, his bones from stone; five, his intelligence from the swiftness of the angels and from cloud; six, his veins and his hair from the grass of the earth; seven, his soul from my breath and from the wind.
11 And I gave him seven natures: to the flesh hearing, the eyes for sight, to the soul smell, the veins for touch, the blood for taste, the bones for endurance, to the intelligence sweetness [enjoyment].
12 I conceived a cunning saying to say, I created man from invisible and from visible nature, of both are his death and life and image, he knows speech like some created thing, small in greatness and again great in smallness, and I placed him on earth, a second angel, honourable, great and glorious, and I appointed him as ruler to rule on earth and to have my wisdom, and there was none like him of earth of all my existing creatures.
13 And I appointed him a name, from the four component parts, from east, from west, from south, from north, and I appointed for him four special stars, and I called his name Adam, and showed him the two ways, the light and the darkness, and I told him:
14 This is good, and that bad, that I should learn whether he has love towards me, or hatred, that it be clear which in his race love me.
15 For I have seen his nature, but he has not seen his own nature, therefore through not seeing he will sin worse, and I said After sin what is there but death?
16 And I put sleep into him and he fell asleep. And I took from him a rib, and created him a wife, that death should come to him by his wife, and I took his last word and called her name mother, that is to say, Eva.
Chapter 31

God gives over paradise to Adam, and gives him a command to see the heavens opened, and that he should see the angels singing the song of victory
1 Adam has life on earth, and I created a garden in Eden in the east, that he should observe the testament and keep the command.
2 I made the heavens open to him, that he should see the angels singing the song of victory, and the gloomless light.
3 And he was continuously in paradise, and the devil understood that I wanted to create another world, because Adam was lord on earth, to rule and control it.
4 The devil is the evil spirit of the lower places, as a fugitive he made Sotona (9) from the heavens as his name was Satanail (10), thus he became different from the angels, but his nature did not change his intelligence as far as his understanding of righteous and sinful things.
(9) Sotona. Or, "Diana."
(10) Satanail. Or, "the impious one." Ha-satan in Hebrew means "the adversary" referring here to the "lead" adversary, or Lucifer.

5 And he understood his condemnation and the sin which he had sinned before, therefore he conceived thought against Adam, in such form he entered and seduced Eva, but did not touch Adam.
6 But I cursed ignorance, but what I had blessed previously, those I did not curse, I cursed not man, nor the earth, nor other creatures, but man’s evil fruit, and his works.
Chapter 32

After Adam’s sin God sends him away into the earth from where he took him from, but does not wish to ruin him for all years to come
1 I said to him: Earth you are, and into the earth whence I took you you shalt go, and I will not ruin you, but send you whence I took you.
2 Then I can again receive you at My second presence.
3 And I blessed all my creatures visible and invisible. And Adam was five and half hours in paradise.
4 And I blessed the seventh day, which is the Sabbath, on which he rested from all his works.
Chapter 33

God shows Enoch the age of this world, its existence of seven thousand years, and the eighth thousand is the end, neither years, nor months, nor weeks, nor days
1 And I appointed the eighth day also, that the eighth day should be the first-created after my work, and that the first seven revolve in the form of the seventh thousand, and that at the beginning of the eighth thousand there should be a time of not-counting, endless, with neither years nor months nor weeks nor days nor hours.
2 And now, Enoch, all that I have told you, all that you have understood, all that you have seen of heavenly things, all that you have seen on earth, and all that I have written in books by my great wisdom, all these things I have devised and created from the uppermost foundation to the lower and to the end, and there is no counsellor nor inheritor to my creations.
3 I am self-eternal, not made with hands, and without change.
4 My thought is my counsellor, my wisdom and my word are made, and my eyes observe all things how they stand here and tremble with terror.
5 If I turn away my face, then all things will be destroyed.
6 And apply your mind, Enoch, and know him who is speaking to you, and take thence the books which you yourself have written.
7 And I give you Samuil (11) and Raguil (12), who led you up, and the books, and go down to earth, and tell your sons all that I have told you, and all that you have seen, from the lower heaven up to my throne, and all the troops.
(11) Samuil. Or, "Sariel."
(12) Raguil. Or, "Raguel."

8 For I created all forces, and there is none that resists me or that does not subject himself to me. For all subject themselves to my monarchy, and labour for my sole rule.
9 Give them the books of the handwriting, and they will read them and will know me for the creator of all things, and will understand how there is no other God but me.
10 And let them distribute the books of your handwriting–children to children, generation to generation, nations to nations.
11 And I will give you, Enoch, my intercessor, the archistratege Michael, for the handwritings of your fathers Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahaleleel, and Jared your father.

I found this very interesting.
Earlier Jewish and Christian bibles are said to contain the books of Enoch.



The Second book of enoch Original date of Composition 2nd cent, BCE- 1st cent.ce
Original language Hewbrew or aramaic
Provenance possably Egypt

Earliest Extant Manuscript 14th cent.CE (old slovonic)

the lost bible forgotten scriptures revealed.
Professor JB Porter (theology)
We first learn of Enoch in Genesis 5 but it leaves us with questions. Hebrews 11 has the answers and Jude quotes Enoch! How did Jude come to know the words of Enoch? They are not in the Bible. The answer of course, is The Book of Enoch. A book which is actually quoted by Jude in the New Testament. What is the Book of Enoch and where did it come from?
The lord also tells us through Enoch that he is
3 I am self-eternal, not made with hands, and without change.

you can check out the books online
http://reluctant-messenger.com/enoch.htm

RE: Book of Enoch

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:09 pm
by Strix
Thanks for the interesting post, Deborah. I've often wondered about the reference in Jude to Enoch's prophecy. I've never taken the time to read the book (and to be honest, have been skeptical of a reliable source). I have taken off on a whim and ordered the book from Amazon. I ordered the book by R.H. Charles, though - from what I could tell from the excerpts, it was more of the translated text than a commentary, and seemed to look a little more respectable (although you shouldn't judge a book by its cover!).

Thanks again,
Strix

P.S. - I had a sister named Deborah... That probably didn't influence me one bit, though... :wink:

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:11 pm
by Deborah
Strix, now you have a sister in christ called Deborah :lol:

Being skeptical is good too, because it means you are more likely to search, look into and prove all things.

One has to wonder exactly why so many early Christian and Hebrew writtings are excluded from what we know as the word of god, when big churches came along. Surely it is our right to decide with the help of the holyspirit ourselves.
Jesus Christ quoted often from the Book of Enoch, indirectly testifying of its authenticity. Now it has been discovered that Enoch returns the favor because the key dates in the life of Christ are "holy days" on the Enoch Calendar. Thus, Enoch, who prophesied of the Elect One, indirectly witnessed that the Messiah would be none other than Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Mat 5:5)

Enoch
The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth. (Enoch 5:7 {6:9})

Jesus Christ
the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son (John 5:22).

Enoch
the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. (Enoch 69:27 {68:39})

there are more references
The Book of Enoch was dropped from the Jewish scriptures shortly after Christ, most likely because it apparently referred to him as the Messiah. It was quoted as scripture by the early Christian Church fathers until the middle of the third century A.D., accepted as a divine work having been written by Enoch himself.[5] It then fell into disrepute and was banned from the canon of scripture in the fourth century, partly because it didn't agree with how Christianity came to be redefined after the death of the apostles.

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/sci_rel ... enoch.html

oh yea it's a later day saints site but isn't it worth a look ?

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:53 pm
by Felgar
"partly because it didn't agree with how Christianity came to be redefined after the death of the apostles."

I have issues with that quote. First, how did Christianity change in definition after the death of the apostles - I believe what they believed because I can read what they said! Incidently their teachings were inspired by God so really they are God's words right to us. I think that has to take precedence over any other information.

Second, I have to believe that God would have preserved His word from the time of Christ.

I guess the quote in some small way undermines the authority of the Bible, and I have a serious problem with anything that attempts to do so.

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:37 pm
by Deborah
partly because it didn't agree with how Christianity came to be redefined after the death of the apostles
But why should have Christianity have been redefined at all?
Should it not have stayed constant?

Surely in the time of christ, if scriptures were not culture, then there would be some record in the NT of Jesus saying so.
I am not saying it is so, but surely that bares some thought?

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:43 am
by Felgar
Deborah wrote:
partly because it didn't agree with how Christianity came to be redefined after the death of the apostles
But why should have Christianity have been redefined at all?
Should it not have stayed constant?
Not sure what you mean Deborah. That's the point I was making - that it hasn't been redefined.

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:10 pm
by j316
Felgar wrote:
Deborah wrote:
partly because it didn't agree with how Christianity came to be redefined after the death of the apostles
But why should have Christianity have been redefined at all?
Should it not have stayed constant?
Not sure what you mean Deborah. That's the point I was making - that it hasn't been redefined.

This quote comes from a latter day saints website, they are heavily into redefinition.

The teachings of the apostles didn't get redefined, at least not by 350AD, and the biblical canon was set by people who were closer to the issues than we are. There are a lot of apocryphal and suspect writings in circulation today.

Your point about letting you and the Holy Spirit decide the validity of various ancient scriptures sort of invalidates 2000 years of thought and scholarship. How do you know whether or not what you decide is really true? Can you say with certainty whether or not it was a result of divine inspiration? Many incorrect actions have resulted from such attempts, can you be certain you are not misleading yourself, or being deliberately misled?

I've been through this to some extent myself and I can tell you that the only certainty in this whole foggy landscape is what was written 2000 years ago and what has been accepted by millions of believers since then. I think that orthodoxy is our only safe guide and the present fad of assembling your own religion is dangerous.

The reason I think this is not so much that it is personally damning but that it creates confusion and discord in the christian community. It is also encouraging to our opponents, they can actually point to us and say 'we can't even agree on what we believe.' This allows them to deny the validity of what we believe, and rightly so. Jesus Himself said a house divided against itself can not stand.

Lately the pseudo-scientific learning channels, Discovery and TLC, have had a rash of shows mixing popular fantasy, shoddy scholarship and a very small core of truth masquerading as religious doctrine. I feel sorry for the people who cannot seperate truth from lies in the field of christian doctrine, they are only going to be led hopelessly astray by this material. It is all part of a blatent attack on the foundations of our religion, one that seems to be accelerating.

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:35 pm
by Strix
j316 wrote:Your point about letting you and the Holy Spirit decide the validity of various ancient scriptures sort of invalidates 2000 years of thought and scholarship. How do you know whether or not what you decide is really true? Can you say with certainty whether or not it was a result of divine inspiration? Many incorrect actions have resulted from such attempts, can you be certain you are not misleading yourself, or being deliberately misled?
It is interesting that we have a clear mandate that the Scriptures are not for anyone's own interpretation (2 Peter 1:20) and yet we read things like 2 Timothy 1:14 where we are to guard the truth "through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us" (NASB). I tend to think that the majority of this work "in us" by the Holy Spirit today is through the Word. (I would not discount nor argue the fact that on some level the Spirit indwells us) The Spirit is the author (2 Peter 1:21); we read the Word and put it in our hearts (Romans 10:8); and it is alive and active (lives) in us (Hebrews 4:12). Therefore, I do not think that letting the Spirit guide you in this way invalidates 2000 years of thought and scholarship. I cannot let my feelings guide me, but I can still have myself in the equation because I am the agent of the test (2 Corinthians 13:5; 1 John 4:1).

Even though I will probably come away from my read of the Book of Enoch to the place where I am now (that it is pseudepigrapha), the Holy Spirit through the Scriptures will guide me in that decision...

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:22 pm
by Deborah
valid point
the Eithiopean bible still contains this book.
Are they less christian than us?

My oppinion, that is not for us to decide.


I STILL find this book enteresting.
but I am not going to base my faith on it.

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:42 am
by LittleShepherd
Actually, the Biblical canon was never determined by any sort of official council, but came together naturally as the books were accepted by God's people as they were written. The Bible canon naturally fell into place.

There was a council in Jamnia in AD 95 to determine the official canon of the Old Testament, who ultimately just confirmed what Jews and Christians had known for hundreds of years already. No books were added to the canon. No books were removed from the canon. As Jesus claimed the Scriptures to be the law, prophets, and psalms -- the entirety of the accepted Hebrew scripture -- so the council ended up agreeing with Him.

There were also councils in Hippo(AD 393) and Carthage(AD 397) to determine the official canon of the New Testament, with the same results. The 27 books of the New Testament had already been accepted by the entirety of Christendom by that time. No books were added to the canon. No books were removed. These councils merely confirmed what was already known.

The apocrypha was rejected as Old Testament canon for a number of reasons. Fantastic stories, historical and mathematical inaccuracies, and the fact that they were never accepted by Jews as Scripture in the first place. Jesus never mentioned them, nor did He include them when he referred to the Scriptures as "the law, prophets, and psalms." Hebrews and Jude refer to extracanonical writings, believed to be the Apocrypha, but never quote them or give them any sort of authority. The Catholic church only accepted eleven of these fifteen books in the year 1546 in response to Luther's 95 theses -- the theses were based on accepted Scripture, and the Apocrypha had statements that outright contradicted them and other Scriptures, particularly in the areas of prayers for the dead(II Maccabees 12:46) and salvation by works(Tobit 12:9).

There are also books considered "lost books," which never seriously vied for a position in NT canon in the first place. One is a forged letter from Paul to the Thessalonians, which he himself warns them against in II Thessalonians 2:2. And there were dozens of others that were recognized as legends and forgeries from the beginning -- remember, the Apostles were around to ask if there were serious questions.

Even the Shepherd of Hermas and the Gospel of Thomas were never accepted by all of Christendom. Not even by a significant portion, though they were widespread(relatively speaking) compared to the rest of the "lost books." SoH contained teachings on redemption that were in blatant contradiction to the teachings of Paul, who had apostolic authority. Hermas did not, so you can guess who won that little fight. GoT contains much garbled nonsense -- sayings that are simply incomprehensible. And no, they're not parables. While the meaning of parables can't always be immediately understood, they still tell a story that's easy enough to understand on the surface. GoT can't even claim that much.

The canon of Scripture has never been seriously up for debate. The OT was accepted by the entirety of Jews as the books were written. The NT was accepted by the entirety of Christendom as the books were written and circulated. The councils that most people assume determined the canon did nothing of the sort -- they merely studied the books that the people of God already accepted, and studied various writings that had not been widely accepted, and verified that the accepted canon lived up to the standards to be Scripture, and that the other writings did not. As I stated in the first paragraph, our Bible fell into place without help.