Evidence for God from Science

Now im not one to say that the bible is factual...but reading it I cant help but notice it has political undertones. As a matter of fact one could say that the spiritual arena described in the bible is one big political arena.

I know a lot of people might get upset by me stating these thoughts that I have theorized and think that im "blaspheming" or whatever but these are logical conclusions that ive drawn when reading the bible. Just remember im presenting a purely theoretical argument within the scope of christianity in order to provoke thought or input.

What is the ultimate revolutionary act? I would say it is open rebellion against your creator. Now, biblically speaking sin would be the most revolutionary act because it is what god hates the most and what he is absolutely opposed to. Also, if God created everything(including spiritual and physical beings) for a purpose...if one wanted to prove God's limited ability and therefore prove to him that he is not all-powerful and therefore should not have absolute rule and should share power...one could technically do so by not fulfilling the purspose God had for him.

By choosing to oppose God and invoking everything he opposes...Satan can take "pop-shots" at God...kinda like small hit and run revolutionary guerilla tactics but the ultimate way satan can prove God is not all powerful is by not fulfilling his original purpose...which as you know was to serve/worship/sing for/please/commune with and just in general be gods absolute underling(just like humans). This also leads me to the idea that satan wouldn't go back to heaven even if God offered absolution of everything he did.

Why, you ask? Because he is trying to prove a point...yes you heard me right..satan is trying to prove a point to God...he is basically saying this: "You are not all-powerful because I CHOOSE to be outside of your will and you cant do anything about it". Some would say that satan ultimately loses becauses he will be sent into the lake of fire along with his allies for eternity. However, that logic is flawed....it assumes that the ultimate outcome of losing/winning is based on human emotion. We assume that satan would want to avoid this pain. Remember this is about proving a point (think of it as a spiritual debate if you will) and by being burnt in the lake of fire forever satan shows God he is not powerful enough to avoid him being there. So in other words, he is saying while there: "Im in a lake of fire forever separated from you (and not fulfilling my purpose) therefore you are not all-powerful". So even though satan is in a losing position, he holds on to a semi-winning argument.

This also may explain why some people choose to be satanist(it's strange I know). Think of it this way...the God of the Bible is a God of love. He supposedly loves us so much that he sent a vital piece or section of himself
(this is how i interpret "son") to experience human nature and die. Now, if we are made in God's image and God feels the very human-like emotions that the Bible claims he does: Wrath, displeasure, disappointment, jealousy, pleasure(not physical...i mean like being happy that some did something)...then who is to say that God doesn't feel deep emotional pain?...
Who is to say that every time you sin it doesn't break his proverbial heart?
Considering this, one must come to the logical conclusion that the people God sends to hell(or that choose to go to hell)must forever cause God some sort of anguish. Do you think that a God who loves you so much would simply forget or stop caring about you because you're in hell? No i don't think so...So therefore I propose as the ultimate conclusion to my argument that Satan and those who choose to wilfully follow him do so to continually because of this:

1) Prove god is not omniscient because no matter how much he wants, he cant accomplish his will and purpose for all of creation.
(ha....i can see the host of reactions to this argument like some will say "maybe God created certain people specifically to go to hell" but then that brings up predestination and questions about God's "love" and then all types of weird circular logic.)

2) Continually cause God emotional pain and anguish for the rest of eternity through their own spiritual pain and anguish.

3) Satan and his followers can CHOOSE to be good or evil(or as you like to say they have "free will"). God cannot choose to do evil because he IS good....so by being the ultimate definition of good.. God is powerless to choose evil. Therefore by giving his created beings free will , he did something that would seem contradictory to ultimate power. He gave them the ability to do some that he could not do.

lol...u'd think I was some kinda religous person considering how much time I spend pondering about these things lately...and no..im not a satanist or even an atheist...truth is im just searching for the truth and don't know exactly what to believe yet...

I'm not sure how you conclude that satan's presence on earth somehow puts a stop to God's plan. Rebellion doesn't make God powerless and evil won't stop Him.

I guess you could say that satan could 'win' by losing, but that would be a pyrrhic victory indeed. Actually it is satan who is powerless, what can he do without God? He only exists through grace, just like the rest of us.

I think you are a little confused about God. Evil is partly a creature of definition, it depends on your perspective. Since we don't have God's perspective it is difficult for us to say whether or not something is really evil. It would certainly be an evil thing, by satan's standards, to condemn him to the lake of fire. In fact it is probably, again from his perspective, God's arrogance and will that causes him to rebel.

The way you state position 3 you make it seem as if God's goodness is a structural or organic aspect of Him. That leaves no room for ethics or any other quality. God isn't good because He can't be bad. His goodness is based on righteousness, He is good because of the innate philosophical differences between good and evil. Good is the 'right' choice for Him and creation.

fedhykin wrote:1) Prove god is not omniscient because no matter how much he wants, he cant accomplish his will and purpose for all of creation.

God's purpose was to create beings that could love Him and be love by Him. God loves everyone enough to provide them that full capability, which must include the ability to reject Him. God remains all-powerful, just that He has made a choice to create us in this way, and He'll stick with that decision. In fact, His decisions could be argued to be eternal.

So I don't recognize your point; God is the one who gives us the choice, we don't take it.

fedhykin wrote:2) Continually cause God emotional pain and anguish for the rest of eternity through their own spiritual pain and anguish.

Agreed, we can cause God pain. But it's pretty stupid to not recognize the much greater pain we inflict upon ourselves by seperating ourselves from the source of life and love.

In the end I don't understand what you're trying to say. If it is that God is not all-poweful, then that is incorrect because it is by God's choice that we are created and granted the freedom we have. Just because He keeps His promises does not mean that He has limited capabilities.

you have many improper assumptions not the least of which is that God is not sovereign because He has given creatures(those He created) choice to follow or not. God is omniscient and as a result He was able to create the best of ALL possible worlds being able to take into account any and all variables to achieve the greatest effect. We exist in time and space and are not omniscient(in fact I have heard that even the smartest human being would be able to know only 2 or 3 percent of all available knowledge) but lets even be generous and say that you are given an incredible 50 percent that would still leave you just as unable to say with CERTAINTY that any conclusion that you derive outside of the revelation of God is correct. that is why even when I was not a Theist(God believer) I could only go so far as to be an agnostic since I could not say for CERTAIN that the is no God. as a finite being we will never know the extent that an infinite God can cause circumstances and situations that appear in our lives to lead to His desires while still being of our own free will to choose. may God bless you in your journey while seeking. I have found the only answer the only way to truth and life and God, Jesus Christ.

fedexguy wrote:we will never know the extent that an infinite God can cause circumstances and situations that appear in our lives to lead to His desires while still being of our own free will to choose.

I agree 100%. Well said.