Evidence for God from Science

6th July - London wins 2012 Olympic bid
7th July - London is at a standstill - 4 explosions in the underground and on a public bus. 33 confirmed dead so far. Islamic Terrorists claim responsibility.

As a person trying to be a Christian I try not to hate these people - but I am finding it very hard.

Silvertusk.

We pray for all of those that were injured and lost loved ones. We pray for the care-givers. We pray for the people of London and Britian. We pray for those who will bring justice to those who did this. And we pray for those who did this, may God have mercy on their souls.

Silvertusk wrote:6th July - London wins 2012 Olympic bid
7th July - London is at a standstill - 4 explosions in the underground and on a public bus. 33 confirmed dead so far. Islamic Terrorists claim responsibility.

As a person trying to be a Christian I try not to hate these people - but I am finding it very hard.

Silvertusk.

9/11 may have been a bigger tragedy since many more people were killed, but let's pray that this terrorism ends soon. May God have spared anyone on this board from this attack or future attacks like this.
How can we interpret this terrorist attack? Perhaps it was God's wake-up call for the Brits to be less liberal and more supportive of President Bush?

ochotseat wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:6th July - London wins 2012 Olympic bid
7th July - London is at a standstill - 4 explosions in the underground and on a public bus. 33 confirmed dead so far. Islamic Terrorists claim responsibility.

As a person trying to be a Christian I try not to hate these people - but I am finding it very hard.

Silvertusk.

9/11 may have been a bigger tragedy since many more people were killed, but let's pray that this terrorism ends soon. May God have spared anyone on this board from this attack or future attacks like this.
How can we interpret this terrorist attack? Perhaps it was God's wake-up call for the Brits to be less liberal and more supportive of President Bush?

What an absolute ridiculous thing to say and it is a typical American response. Sorry - but comments like that make me sick. Lets not go there please.

Silvertusk, I don't think that should be seen as a "typical American response" but rather, the response from just one American on this forum which, correctly, is all that it is.

According to what I am hearing in the News, it is looking very like the activities of Al-Qa'ida. And reading some of the quotations from the Qur'an that people have posted on threads here, I think they indicate the probable interpretation... that fanatical adherents of Islam are hellbent on pushing their cause and causing destruction eventually to all of us in the "Christian" West.

To show you, here are some of the quotes that have been posted before:

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)
"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:29)
"The Christians say: The Christ is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them." (Sura 9:30)
"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)
"If a wound (and killing) has touched you, be sure a similar wound (and killing) has touched the others." (Surah 3:140)

Judah wrote:Silvertusk, I don't think that should be seen as a "typical American response" but rather, the response from just one American on this forum which, correctly, is all that it is.

According to what I am hearing in the News, it is looking very like the activities of Al-Qa'ida. And reading some of the quotations from the Qur'an that people have posted on threads here, I think they indicate the probable interpretation... that fanatical adherents of Islam are hellbent on pushing their cause and causing destruction eventually to all of us in the "Christian" West.

To show you, here are some of the quotes that have been posted before:

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)
"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:29)
"The Christians say: The Christ is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them." (Sura 9:30)
"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)
"If a wound (and killing) has touched you, be sure a similar wound (and killing) has touched the others." (Surah 3:140)

I apoologise for that generalisation but his remarks did make made blood boil.

What you said about the Koran is interesting - it really does advocate the actions caused in London yesterday and 9/11. Thank God most Muslims seem to ignore this verses and are really nice people. But it surprises me that Muslims in general - when they say that they deplore violence and believe in peace are in sense contradicting what they are suppose to beleive in. I would be interested to hear what is a Muslim's take on this is?

Silvertusk, the bombings are just so insane and deplorable, at least from our point of view, and so your heightened feelings are very understandable.
I lived a short time in London, near Edgeware Road, as a young teenager and have visited again since when we stayed at an address in Russell Square. That made it even more horrifying to me seeing the pictures on TV and hearing of more and more reported deaths and injuries as these come to hand.

I hear of Muslims claiming that their religion teaches peace, and that they themselves are peaceful. I know Muslims who are peaceful people. But when I read what is written in their Qur'an, I cannot agree about their religion being peaceful.

There are several threads on this forum where folk have been discussing issues pertaining to Islam and Christianity, and you might find those interesting to read.

I believe that Islam is not a religion of peace, but I believe that the majority of Muslims are peaceful. How can this be? From my experience with Muslims I believe that the peaceful Muslims are following the sayings of Muhammad and the verses in the Qur'an in the Mecca period; the more violent Muslims are following the sayings of Muhammad and the verses in the Qur'an from the Medina period.

You all might want to read an article that explains this pretty well.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Christia ... minar.html

Clip:

THE MOST IMPORTANT CONCEPT I WANT YOU TO GRASP IS
As circumstances changed, Muhammad changed, hence his theology - Islam, changed. The Muhammad of Mecca was not the Muhammad of Medina: the Islam of Mecca was not the Islam of Medina.

The one important thing I want you to learn about Muhammad is that his theology changed significantly after he fled to Medina from Mecca. In Mecca is was a peaceful "warner." In Medina he became the violent warrior.

The conclusions in the article noted above have been confirmed to me by a couple of books I have just finished reading, as well as other sources.
The books are:"Jesus and Muhammad" and "Islam and the Jews" by Mark A. Gabriel, PhD.

Gabriel's credentials are: Bachelor's, master's, and doctorate degrees in Islamic and History and Culture from Al-Azhar University, Cairo, Egypt, Graduating second in his class of six thousand students for his bachelor's degree. This ranking was based on cumulative scores or oral and written exams given at the end of each school year, One of the youngest lecturers ever hired at Al-Azhar University. He started lecturing after he finished his master's degree and was working to finish his doctorate, Traveling lecturer. The university sent him to countries around the Middle East as a lecturer in Islamic history, Served as the imam at a mosque in the Cairo suburbs, Later Gabriel became a Christian and pursued a Christian education which include: Discipleship Training School with Youth With A Mission in Cape Town, South Africa, Master's degree in World Religion from Florida Christian University in Orlando, Florida (2001), Doctorate degree in Christian Education from Florida Christian University in Orland, Florida (2002), Induction as a fellow in the Oxford Society of Scholars, September 2003.

In Gabriel's book, "Muhammad and Jesus," he explains what "abrogation" of verses in the Qur'an means. For instance you can read this verse:

"Let there be no compulsion in religions: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever reject Evil and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things." Surah 2:256

Then look at Surah 9:5, "Kill the Mushrikun (pagans) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush."

Surah 9:5 contradicts Surah 2:256. The contradiction is explained by another revelation.

Surah 2:106, "Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?"

This verse says that Allah causes some parts of the Qur'an to be abrogated. Abrogate means "to abolish by authoritative action, " "to treat as nonexistent" or "to nullify." These "abrogated" verses are replaced by verses that are "better" or "similar."

The practical application of this principle is that when there is a contradiction between two verses in the Qur'an, the newer revelation overrides the previous revelation. The new cancels the old.

You can still read the words, "There is no compulsion in religion," in the Qur'an, but they no longer have authority. This verse has been mansookh (canceled) by revelations that come later.

The principle of "nasiskh" means that Allah led Muhammad in a progressive revelation and nasikh is widely accepted in Islam—Sunni and Shias accept this principle. The only way you can interpret the Qur'an is to accept nasikh. You can't just choose the verses you like and discard the ones you don't like.

According to Gabriel, "some Muslims who are not well taught in their faith may not understand nasikh fully, but it is still a foundational principle of Islam."

I think that you can readily see why some Muslims are peaceful and others are not. The peaceful are concentrating of the "nice" verses and rejecting the "not so nice" verses. I have seen many Muslims fighting with each other on discussion boards. The ones who accept the "nice" and reject the "not so nice" verses are sometimes called apostates.

Gabriel wrote an article about the different "types" of Muslims that you might find interesting.

http://www.charismamag.com/a.php?ArticleID=7720

Sorry I am so long-winded today, but I have one more very important thing to say and that is what Christians should be doing. We need to be able to answer questions about Christianity from Muslims and also be able to answer their allegations against Christianity. Most importantly they include the following:

1. The Trinity. Be able to explain the Trinity in simple understandable language. The allegation is that Christians believe in three gods; we worship God's creation (the human being, Jesus) and that is the one unforgivable sin in Islam.

2. Muslims say that we do not follow Jesus but we follow Paul instead.

3. Muslims say that St. Paul invented the Trinity and Jesus never taught it.

4. Muslims say that Jesus never claimed divinity.

5. Muslims say that the early followers of Jesus did not believe He was God.

6. And the old time favorite: The Bible has been corrupted by the Jews and the Christians and is not reliable.

True religion is not that flexible!!!!!!!!!!!

You wrote:

True religion is not that flexible!!!!!!!!!!!

I assume that you are referring to the abrogation of Qur'anic verses?

The Qur'an was written over a period of 22 1/2 years. It is true that God can change His mind from time to time over a period of thousands of years, but over such a short span of time--22 1/2 years? I hardly think so.

Christian2, that is one of the best "long-winded" posts I have read!
Big thanks for explaining all that, and for the references and links.

Hi Judah,

You are welcome. I have been studying Islam for about 4 years and I mean about 40 hours per week, including studying Christianity and a comparison of the two religions, with a little+ Judaism thrown into the mix.

It is not easy and it takes a tremendous amount of my time, but considering the events of 9/11 and other terrorists' attacks, it has been well worth my time. I had a Muslim tell me that I know more about the teachings of Islam than most Muslims. I don't know about that, but I do know that it is very hard to get a consensus of opinion from Muslims on a lot of subjects. Who really speaks for Islam?

The problem, as I see it, is that Christians and the world at large do not know enough about the religion of Islam, its history and the history of Muhammad and there are just too many so-called "scholars" such as Karen Armstrong who are not telling it like it is. Armstrong is making mistakes and as I understand it, some of her books are manatory reading in some universities in the US (not good!). I think she is trying to be politically correct, or she has some kind of agenda or is just plain ignorant. I don't know which. I have to be cautious because I haven't read any of her books. I have only read opinions of trusted people who have read her books and do know Islam well and the opinions of her work are not good. Mark Gabriel does not think much of her.

Have to go---

Christian2, I applaud you for studying the Qur'an for as long as you did. My question to you is, is the Islamic religion have ANY chance to being the true religion and not Christinaity? I also don't know about this, but are Muslims that same as Islamic's, or is Muslim a religion?

Silvertusk wrote: What an absolute ridiculous thing to say and it is a typical American response. Sorry - but comments like that make me sick. Lets not go there please.

Are you downright positive that the calamities in the USA, UK, and Spain were or weren't wake-up signs from God?
I brood if more people, particularly Britons, will be more supportive of President Bush's outspoken Christian values, war on terror, and Iraq War.

But it surprises me that Muslims in general - when they say that they deplore violence and believe in peace are in sense contradicting what they are suppose to beleive in.

The founder of Islam didn't exactly have a virtuous life, especially compared to Jesus. You'll be shocked once you read about it.
Muslims are allowing Islam to be dominated by their radical extremists, so it's their responsibility to fix that.

Christian2, I applaud you for studying the Qur'an for as long as you did. My question to you is, is the Islamic religion have ANY chance to being the true religion and not Christinaity? I also don't know about this, but are Muslims that same as Islamic's, or is Muslim a religion?

If you're a Christian, you shouldn't doubt your religion for the sake of Islam. Muslims are followers of Islam. Today's Islamic Middle Eastern countries were inhabited largely by Christians and Jews until Muhammad came up with Islam.

reconquering lost Muslim lands like Israel and Spain

Israel and Spain were never native Muslim lands, so that shows their ignorance.

HelpMeGod

Christian2, I applaud you for studying the Qur'an for as long as you did. My question to you is, is the Islamic religion have ANY chance to being the true religion and not Christinaity? I also don't know about this, but are Muslims that same as Islamic's, or is Muslim a religion?

Islam is the name of the religion; Muslims are believers in that religion.

In my opinion, Islam has no chance of being a true religion. I believe that Muhammad was a false prophet. Jesus warned us about them and there are also warnings of false prophets in the OT.

Jesus said: "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them" (Matthew 7:15).

In my opinion the fruit of Muhammad is rotten to the core.

I believe that Islam is a false religion and all you need to do is look at the fruits of Islam to discover this fact. Islam is built on bloody aggression. It is a religion of the sword as people say.

Mark Gabriel said this to his professor when asked why he was leaving Islam:

"I studied the history of Islam in a very deep way, and it is simply an ocean of blood. When Muslims stopped killing non-Muslims, they turned and started to kill each other. Then I gave him an examples: the War of Conversion that claimed the lives of almost ninety thousand people who tried to stop paying the zakat, or charity tax, after Muhammad's death: the War of Sufyan, where ten thousand Muslims died fighting over who would be in charge of the Islamic state after Muhammad's death; the Iran/Iraq War, in which one million people were killed and two million disabled in the course of nine years; civil war in Algeria, where 150,000 people have been killed in the past seven years."

Muslims were following the example of the prophet of Islam and his holy book.

The leaders of Islam followed Muhammad's example. After Muhammad died, many people who had converted to Islam by force tried to leave it. However, Abu Bakr, one of Muhammad's closest friends, was quickly recognized as successor. He spent the first three months of his authority killing those who had tried to leave Islam—eighty thousand people. This is how Abu Bakr followed the example of Muhammad.

An example of Jesus' teaching is: Matthew 26:52, 52But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."

Muslims can justify fighting and killing in the name of Allah by the teachings of the Qur'an and by the example of Muhammad.

A very short record of some of the wars of Islam can be found here:

http://www.carm.org/islam/islam_chronology.htm

Practically all of the battles of Islam were fought against people who never even dreamed of invading Arabia. I could have continued the list above with the second Caliphate, the Ottoman Turks, and there was a string of similar sordid war exploits as well.

I don't see Islam as a religion of peace whereas Christianity is.

You might be interested in reading an article from an American Muslim website:

http://www.aicongress.org/teachersguide1.html

Be sure to read this part:

How does Al-Qaeda fit?

Since the fall of the Ottoman Empire in the early 20th century, many Muslims have lamented the loss of a unified Muslim polity and longed for the reestablishment of a world empire. Some have organized movements with the imposition of a Muslim world order as their end goal. In recent years, there have been numerous such movements, some but not all adopting a strategy of armed struggle.

Al-Qaeda is one such group. It is a coalition of armed movements espousing a refined form of Wahhabism, a stringent interpretation of Sunni Islamic law that informs the state ideology of Saudi Arabia and until recently Afghanistan. Usama bin Laden and his followers wish to make Islam the only religio-political force in the world.

In practice, this means reclaiming Muslim countries now ruled by secular governments they view as illegitimate, reconquering lost Muslim lands like Israel and Spain, unifying the entire Muslim world under a new caliphate, and ultimately, advancing into new territories and claiming them for Islam. America's position as the only superpower pits it inherently against their ambitions. Thus, weakening America is a fundamental part of their agenda.