Evidence for God from Science

Riddle me please, how do 2 men read the same Bible and being illuminated by the same Holy Spirit come up with diametrically opposed views? the most easily spotted of these is election versus free will. one group say 5 point Calvinism is true while another equally Godfearing group of Arminians say that man has the first and final say on salvation acceptance. obviously they cannot both be right, can they? so which side is the most arrogant? my personal opinion is that the Calvinist seems to be still believing that God saw or made him redeemable above those who are not redeemed. (those predestined to hell). the Arminian seems to think that he is the final arbiter of his own salvation by receipt or rejection, but is this as arrogant as the Calvinist. at least the Arminian says that all are wretched sinners with no redeeming quality other than belief. just a little something to chew on. God bless all.

People don't necessarily listen to the Holy Spirit....

It's a good question... I don't have the answer. Even on a greater level - from all accounts Pope John Paul II was a man truly devoted to the Lord. So how could he and Billy Graham, both being saved and lead by the Holy Spirit, hold many completely opposing views. It's also something I've though about as well, and don't have a good answer for.

It's, as Kmart said, lack of hearing or heeding the Holy Spirit. There's truth out there to be found, you just have to know the way to find it and how to decipher it from falsehood. Some seek truth in the wrong way and/or from the wrong places. If you read the Bible and so based on soley that try to ascertain truth, you are doomed without the Holy Spirit to guide your understanding. Whether or not you hear the Holy Spirit or correctly understand what He's saying boils down to your maturity as a Christian, and that can only be helped by growth, which is pretty complicated in the details.

BTW, you can be a Calvinist and believe just as an Arminian does that all men are equally unredeemable, (or redeemable, whichever way you take it.) I could be labeled a Calvinist and yet I believe in salvation the same way an Arminain does, except for the fact that whether you believe or not ultimately depends on God's gameplan for history. I have discussed how God can be Just and Fair while doing so in another thread somewhere, if you're interested.

kateliz wrote:If you read the Bible and so based on soley that try to ascertain truth, you are doomed without the Holy Spirit to guide your understanding. Whether or not you hear the Holy Spirit or correctly understand what He's saying boils down to your maturity as a Christian, and that can only be helped by growth, which is pretty complicated in the details.

So which of Billy Graham or the Pope had very little maturity as a Christian?

I don't think the answer is quite as simple as you're saying Kateliz...

you see there is my quandry, I believe more closely to the teachings of Mr. Graham, so quite naturally I think he is more closely following the Holy Spirit as I am. However, just because I agree with some points as Mr. Graham, I find that the Pope or other "men" also have some elements of truth in their worship of God and perhaps(even likely)I have been prejudiced in my understanding of true worship. The most glaring difference to me is the difference of dispensationalism versus almost any other form of end time theology. I was raised a dispensational Baptist(really never was told there was any other option) but after intensive Bible reading and praying for illumination, I can NOT see how anything in the Bible teaches 2 distinct people of Christ. In fact it is very explicit in the assertion that there is only 1 body of Christ, so I am now leaing toward amillenial. But I do not truly despair since I know that God will reveal what I am capable of having as wisdom and knowledge in this life-time and for eternity I can explore the wonders of all He has done. I even hope to see Mr. Graham and the Pope and see what it was like to yield your life so completely(at least externally) to the work of God.

Kateliz, I am fully convinced that Bible study with the illumination of the Holy Spirit and other forms of service are ways to maturity in Christ, but I do not agree with you that it is complicated. I have lived 42 years in the dark of the mind of man living a very complicated life of non-dependence on God. In the last year I finally yielded and asked God to take control and the whole time Bible study, reading books on theological issues, listening to speakers, etc. has been an unexplainable and insatiable hunger for God. It has been when I have yielded to His direction and moved in the direction of the "small voice" of God's Spirit that I have been led to true revelation. God will not make knowing Him complicated, it seems to be quite the opposite, the harder we try the more we miss Him. I think the hard part is learning to let go and let God. I can not live a life pleasing to God by outside appearances of legalism, ascetism and other -isms. I live a life pleasing to God by allowing Him to give me a new heart and allow Him to let me know that I was, am and will be forgiven so that He can give me the eternal life of Christ to live out in my life. p.s. yes I would appreciate it if you would give the topic and title of your thread on Calvinism. God bless

Ok My take on this is! I believe there are opposing views to many of the Scriptures in the Bible (WHY?) Well it is the way one looks at the Bible. What does one Being RICH get from the Bible compared to one being POOR? What does a Dying Person get from the Bible that a Healthy Person Gets? There are also many shall we say Vague entries in the Bible where one does not know how to perceive the Scripture and then will take that scripture according to the Perception they have. Billy Graham had what Kind of Annointing on him? What did the Lord USE Billy Graham for? What about the Pope? What kind of annointing did he have on him? What kind of Life did they live? what was Important to them and what did they want to get across with their Ministry?

There are lots of "Leading up to" questions!