Page 1 of 2

American superiority/power

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:44 pm
by ochotseat
Let's hear some USA's. :wink:

“If God is for us…”
By Bobby Beecher

Is America's superpower status the result of religious devotion? Many Christians believe it is. They can't prove, of course, that a correlation exists between faith and firepower or wealth and worship. But there's no doubt that the rich and robust United States is one of the most pious nations on Earth.

Religious faith is indeed pervasive in America, despite secularizing pressures from the mass media and the “wall of separation” between church and state. Moreover, America's predominant religion isn't some kind of watered-down New Age theism. Most Americans are Biblical literalists, Christians who believe — as the editors of Newsweek magazine recently discovered — “the Virgin Birth, the angelic proclamation to the shepherds, the Star of Bethlehem and the Wise Men from the East” were actual historical events.

And that's not all. According to a poll conducted for Newsweek by Princeton Survey Research Associates, 67 percent of Americans believe “the entire story of Christmas” and 55 percent believe “every word of the Bible is literally accurate.”

An overwhelming majority of Americans, 82 percent, believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ and 52 percent believe that “Jesus will return to Earth someday.”

At least one of the poll's findings has important political implications. An astounding 62 percent of Americans “favor teaching creation science in addition to evolution in public schools,” and nearly half would like to see creation scientists replace the disciples of Darwin in public school classrooms.

But dogmatic adherence to the “old time religion” could be driving a wedge between America and our so-called “friends and allies” in Europe.

In the summer of 2003, the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace hosted a seminar entitled God and Foreign Policy: The Religious Divide Between the U.S. and Europe. The forum, which was moderated by Washington Post columnist E. J. Dionne, included presentations from Justin Vaisse of the Brookings Institution and Craig Kennedy of the German Marshall Fund. The luminaries reported that a spiritual ocean separates the U.S. and Europe, and that bridging this cultural gulf may prove impossible.

For example, according to a survey conducted by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, 59 percent of Americans feel “religion is a very important part of their lives.” Only 11 percent of the French feel that way, while 21 percent of Germans, 27 percent of Italians, and 33 percent of the British acknowledge religious faith as an important part of their lives.

Moreover, most Americans (58 percent) argue that a belief in God is essential to individual morality. But, according to the Pew survey, “overwhelming majorities of the Europeans say it's not necessary to believe in God to be a moral person.”

Many Europeans share the opinion of English journalist Paul Vallely, who wrote in The Independent of London that American “adherence to the outmoded tenets of religious belief” is “obscurantist” nonsense. Indeed, it's this kind open hostility to religion that prompted Francois Heisbourg, the director of a French think tank, to assert that Americans and Europeans are “no longer part of the same civilization.”

America's literalist Christians would no doubt agree. But they would also argue that the Europeans' rejection of the faith of their fathers has led to the continent's decline as a major force in world affairs. And this vacuum, they would add, has been filled by the United States, which has reaped the rewards in wealth and power the Bible promises to nations that remain faithful to God.

Ironically, Europe's decadent democracies are in danger of being overrun by militant Muslims from the Middle East and Africa. France, which is already the most anti-Christian nation in Europe, is now host to more than 4 million Muslims.

Once upon a time, Christian warriors like Charlemagne drove the “Saracens” from Europe. Now the only impediment to the Islamic domination of what used to be known as Christendom is Jacques Chirac and a silly ban on religious head coverings.

The Europeans think Americans are religious fanatics. But, as we say in South Georgia, they ain't seen nothing yet.

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:15 pm
by Felgar
I agree with the post. I have no doubt that America's status is very much the result of blessings from God. Europe too, in the past was also rewarded but I believe that we're beginning to see them reap the consequences of turning from God. Only 60 years ago the whole of Englad was praying for deliverance and now they stand beligerent and defiant; and that is a tragedy.

The one problem I think America has though, is too many will profess faith but not live it. The whole of the nation is in danger of being the seed that is choked by weeds. I think this is a natural consequence of propserity and of an ever increasingly materialistic society. Fortunately I believe we are starting to see the signs of revival as the grandchildren of the war generation have no longer had their faith handed to them by their parents. Rather, they are finding themselves in the poisiton to make their own personal and real commitments to God and their faith. I only pray the trend continues.

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:23 pm
by ochotseat
Felgar wrote:I agree with the post. I have no doubt that America's status is very much the result of blessings from God. Europe too, in the past was also rewarded but I believe that we're beginning to see them reap the consequences of turning from God. Only 60 years ago the whole of Englad was praying for deliverance and now they stand beligerent and defiant; and that is a tragedy.

The one problem I think America has though, is too many will profess faith but not live it. The whole of the nation is in danger of being the seed that is choked by weeds. I think this is a natural consequence of propserity and of an ever increasingly materialistic society. Fortunately I believe we are starting to see the signs of revival as the grandchildren of the war generation have no longer had their faith handed to them by their parents. Rather, they are finding themselves in the poisiton to make their own personal and real commitments to God and their faith. I only pray the trend continues.
Why does it seem like Canada is trying to emulate their neighbors across the Atlantic and not their neighbors down south? :?

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:09 pm
by kateliz
Blessings from Satan can bring wealth and power, but yes a great downfall too. America is young- the downfall might be just around the bend. We may have more numbers, but numbers don't mean anything. What if we measured true faith? What would that show?

We live in the generation of Laodiceans, (spelling?) where we are neither cold nor hot. God will spew all of us from His mouth in digust, (all being general.) If you're not hot, what God have you got? You cannot serve both money and God, and yet how many "good" Christians in America serve money more than their "lord"?

I have met several Africans who've immigrated to America who are very hot for God and speak of the spiritual warfare going on in Africa that's very real and overt. It's very shocking to compare those people to Americans. As far as I'm concerned, we are very dead spiritually because we are so cold. Those African Christians are alive and kicking, and we lay cold and stiff in our coffins of gold.

What of the rich man getting into the kingdom of heaven with the same difficulty a camel would go through the eye of a needle? Count your provisions as nothing in view of the Provider.

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:53 am
by ochotseat
kateliz wrote:Blessings from Satan can bring wealth and power, but yes a great downfall too. America is young- the downfall might be just around the bend. We may have more numbers, but numbers don't mean anything. What if we measured true faith? What would that show?

We live in the generation of Laodiceans, (spelling?) where we are neither cold nor hot. God will spew all of us from His mouth in digust, (all being general.) If you're not hot, what God have you got? You cannot serve both money and God, and yet how many "good" Christians in America serve money more than their "lord"?

I have met several Africans who've immigrated to America who are very hot for God and speak of the spiritual warfare going on in Africa that's very real and overt. It's very shocking to compare those people to Americans. As far as I'm concerned, we are very dead spiritually because we are so cold. Those African Christians are alive and kicking, and we lay cold and stiff in our coffins of gold.

What of the rich man getting into the kingdom of heaven with the same difficulty a camel would go through the eye of a needle? Count your provisions as nothing in view of the Provider.
If the developing world rises above the developed world, I wonder if we'll turn closer to God then.

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:43 am
by kateliz
I made a goof-up in my post. I said, "we are very dead spiritually because we are so cold," after I had just stated that we are neither cold nor hot, and while talking about Christians who obviously aren't spiritually dead! The first is correct; I meant, by saying we are very cold, that our luke-warmness is a condition that's very serious. How disugsting it must be to God that we Christians, (many of these being nominal most likely,) are wholly content to treat God as an ornament to be kept on a shelf getting dusty, only looking at and appreciating Him when we happen to glance in His direction!
ochotseat wrote:If the developing world rises above the developed world, I wonder if we'll turn closer to God then.
Depends what you mean by "rises." If you're speaking of wealth and power, those developing countries might very well then get caught up in luke-warmness too. People try to get closer to God when crisis' occur. If America does have a downfall, (many modern-day so-called prophets seem to all agree that that will happen, and in not too long,) then we'll draw closer to Him.

It's kind of like having a really cool sword hanging on your wall for decoration. You like to occassionally admire it and show it off to others, but you never take it down. Then one day someone comes barging in your house brandishing a gun. You then, being in the same room with the sword, instinctively grab it off the wall for protection. It would take someone barging in our house brandishing a gun to get us off our butts and onto our knees. Well, that or a large, God-sanctioned revival!

But the problem with that is we don't know how God does revivals! We like the D.L. Moody and Billy Graham approach because the Jonathan Edwards approach, which is the God-sanctioned way of revival, (honestly, I researched the effects of the revivals and everything!) goes contrary to our liking and some of our unbiblical theology.

Theology is so important. It's distinguishing who God is, how He works, and how we have a close relationship with Him. On these matters it's death if we agree to disagree. We must have truth.

Look at me getting myself off-topic! I'll stop now.

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:50 am
by Felgar
ochotseat wrote:Why does it seem like Canada is trying to emulate their neighbors across the Atlantic and not their neighbors down south? :?
Because the people who elect our government ARE emulating Europe rather than America. Their hearts have turned from God, esspecially in the younger population. It's sad and we'll suffer because of it.

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:17 pm
by ochotseat
kateliz wrote: If America does have a downfall
Of course it will. Nothing on this Earth lasts forever, but America's standing will last so long as we continue to love and obey God in large numbers.
We like the D.L. Moody and Billy Graham approach
Don't get started on Graham :D
because the Jonathan Edwards approach, which is the God-sanctioned way of revival
So that guy has the only correct Christian revival method? Do you happen to be related to him?

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:54 pm
by sandy_mcd
Felgar wrote:I agree with the post.
I disagree strongly. I will try to elaborate when I get some free time. It will be interesting to me to see why we disagree as I agree with most of your posts.
sandy

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:36 am
by Felgar
sandy_mcd wrote:I disagree strongly. I will try to elaborate when I get some free time. It will be interesting to me to see why we disagree as I agree with most of your posts.
Alrighty... Well, just to get you ready...

2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

So we do have an assurance of blessing to those who seek the Lord. And I believe that any one who follows Jesus is one of God's people. And finally, remember that it wasn't long ago when Christians fled Europe in search of a land where they could worship freely and serve the Lord.

So yeah, IMO the West's position of priviledge is the result of blessing from God. I'll be interested to hear why you don't think so.

Until then... :)

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:42 pm
by sandy_mcd
Felgar wrote: 2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

So yeah, IMO the West's position of privilege is the result of blessing from God. I'll be interested to hear why you don't think so.
Sorry for the delay in response to this. I had wanted to gather my thoughts, check my facts, and do a good job with attributions, but things are not getting any better, so I will slop this out now.


Why I do not think America's military and economic prosperity is a blessing from God
1) perspective
2) scripture
3) what it all means

1)Some people believe America's current 16 year reign as sole superpower and wealthy nation is due to Americans' religious devotion to God. I think this is in part because a person's perspective is strongly influenced by the time and place they inhabit. America's rule as sole superpower is only 16 years, but the country has been wealthy longer than that. Still, this is not much more than a blink of the eye of the last 2000 years. The overall correlation of Godliness with wealth and prosperity is not very high.
a) Geography. Mexico has about the same religious fervor as the US. So do Italy and some other countries. Is Mexico a wealthy world superpower ? We are at the top now, but China and maybe India are nipping at our heels in some respects. Are the populations of these countries devout Christians ?
b) Time. Armenia was the first Christian nation ~300 AD with a much higher percentage of Christians than the US. Why were they denied wealth and power ? The Roman Empire was dominant for hundreds of years (a lot longer than the US has been) but when it went Christian under Constantine, it soon started on a long slide downhill. Why weren't the fortunes of this Empire reversed, with success coming with the advent of Christianity and not before ? What about the Turks and Islamic Empires of the Middle Ages to 1800's ?. They were wealthy and powerful for long periods of time but certainly not Christian.
c) Distribution. Yes, the US is wealthy, but who has most of this wealth ? Athletes, movie stars, musicians, business executives. Not groups normally known for being practicing Christians. The compensation of CEO's has increased by over 50% in the last year alone. Are they the most devout of all ? And what about the poverty stricken, especially in the rural South, where the population has the highest percentages of church-goers in the nation ? Why aren't they more blessed than the rest ? What about the poor, drowning, starving, dehydrating like rats in New Orleans while FEMA twiddles its thumbs ? Plenty of churches down there. (See my polls for more on this, coming soon to a garbage bin forum in the near future).

2) Scripture. It seems to me a far stretch from "forgive their sin and will heal their land" to "make you wealthy and powerful". If that's the best that can be gleaned, I would say it's clear there are no promises of wealth and power to the righteous on Earth. Along with the aforementioned rich man and eye of the needle, there are (somewhat out of context) the temple money changers, and My kingdom is not of this earth, which suffice to show that material wealth and power are not part of Jesus' teaching. Did not the Apostles give up their worldly possessions ? Aren't there many other exhortations to help the poor and sick ? I would think here it is the responsibility of claimant that wealth and power will be earthly rewards to Christians.

3) Basically, and here I part ways with many in this community, I can't believe in a micromanaging God. Does He really sit around all day and pick which sports team will win the championship to reward the players, casually decide to cast some plane into a mountain but save a few chosen, pick souls on purpose to live a few squalid years in sub-Saharan Africa and others to be wealthy potentates ? It seems this flies in the face of free will if most events are predetermined. I had a few more things to say on this line but they have slipped my mind.

sandy

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:30 am
by Felgar
On 1 a) and b) I think we'd have to establish some certain facts before anything could come of those points. I disagree that as a nation Mexico serves the Lord in a similar way to the US. And I also would question just how "Christian" a nation Rome was.

On point c) I think this reveals a much too narrow definition of blessings. Sure there is wealth, but there is also security, peace, freedom, among many others. America's wealth and military power could be nothing more than a means by which God permits his children to live in safety, free to worship and follow Him without hardship.
sandy_mcd wrote:2) Scripture. It seems to me a far stretch from "forgive their sin and will heal their land" to "make you wealthy and powerful". If that's the best that can be gleaned, I would say it's clear there are no promises of wealth and power to the righteous on Earth. ... I would think here it is the responsibility of claimant that wealth and power will be earthly rewards to Christians.
Agreed there are many, many warnings against the dangers of wealth. But understand that most of them relate to the very fact that we cannot serve two masters.

Luke 16:13
"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

Again, wealth is only a small part of God blessing a nation. But it certainly can be a part; observe the Isrealites. The whole of Dueteronomy is basically God saying "if I am your Lord, you will be blessed."
sandy_mcd wrote:3) Basically, and here I part ways with many in this community, I can't believe in a micromanaging God. ... It seems this flies in the face of free will if most events are predetermined. I had a few more things to say on this line but they have slipped my mind.
I do not know to what degree God will actually shape the events in our lives. But I do know for certain, that God goes much further than mere 'micromanaging'. He demands to be the very center of our lives. He is our God above all else - above family, money, everything. He is a God who will have our personal and intimate love and affection. And all of this is a manifestation of His love for us, because God is the one thing that can fullfill our soul and never betray us. Everything else is temporary, but Jesus never fails. Our personal relationship with Jesus is the very thing that makes us Christians; followers of Christ - and I therefore strongly disagree with any notion that God passively allows the world to unfold with careless ambivilance toward those who call His name.

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:38 pm
by sandy_mcd
Felgar wrote:On 1 a) and b) I think we'd have to establish some certain facts before anything could come of those points. ...
On point c) I think this reveals a much too narrow definition of blessings.
Points 1a and 1b were based on comparing other places and times with ours. Are there other peoples who were as good and better and were they similarly rewarded ? Were there other peoples who were rewarded but do not seem to deserve it ? If there is historically and geographically a strong correlation between behavior and reward, it would provide some basis for the original claim. Those were the points I was attempting to address. Please feel free to use other examples as you see fit. I am limiting myself to power and wealth because that is what the original post claims. Personally I feel God's blessings are spiritual and not material. I object to the implication in the original claim that the materially well off deserve it and the poor and week likewise deserve their fate because they don't serve the Lord. I don't understand your comments on 1c - you seem to be saying that somehow rock stars having lots of money increases non-material blessings for the rest of us ?
Felgar wrote:I do not know to what degree God will actually shape the events in our lives. But I do know for certain, that God goes much further than mere 'micromanaging'. He demands to be the very center of our lives.
Here I apparently did not make myself clear because you are not responding to what I meant to convey. I don't see how having God at the center of our lives translates into the arranging of material events for us. Does God arrange events so we become materially wealthy or powerful ? Does God arrange storms to punish innocent people as a lesson to the rest of us ? Where do you (rhetorical, not you specifically, but certainly some others here) stop with attributing every event in this world to God's reaction to our behavior ? If I turn on the light to read the Bible is that due specifically to divine intervention or to the power grid ? If the light goes out when I switch to pornography is that the direct hand of God or the result of my not paying the bill ? That is what I meant by micromanaging. In this case, is there any such thing as a natural world ?

In summary, I do not like the implications that the good are materially blessed on earth and those on earth who are unfortunate deserve their fate. This was never explicitly stated in the first article but it seems to me to be the underlying text.

sandy

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:22 pm
by pilgrim
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Proverbs: 16:18.

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:46 pm
by sandy_mcd
pilgrim wrote:Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.Proverbs: 16:18.
And the relevance is ? Who had pride ? Who suffered in the fall ? How does this apply to Hurricane Katrina ? Sorry, but I don't understand what point you are trying to make. Please explain in a little more detail.
thanks
sandy