Evidence for God from Science

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Is there/are there Biblical precedents that it is a Christian's duty to vote.

Is it true that a responsible Christian will vote?
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Your question could also be reversed: "Is it true that a responsible Christian wouldn't vote?" I guess it hinges on what you mean by responsible. Studying early history of Christianity, I have realised just how much politics have affected Christianity. Should Christians not use every instrument possible for what they believe would be better for Christ? The obvious answer to me is yes.

There was an article I recently saw on the Stand to Reason website which relates to this issue. You might be interested to have a read of it: http://www.str.org/free/solid_ground/SG0411.pdf

Kurieuo.

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I read some good points in your link.

However, the author does not take into account that all politicians are crooked and hardly "Christian" even though they promote themselves as such.

All one needs to look at to realize this is the manner in which they campaign. Neither are man enough or Christian enough to campaign on their own ideology, and plans. Each one insists on smear campaigns. Is this Christian? Does this type of political campaigning make the average Christian jump for joy and say, "Now there's a good Christian person to lead our country." Hardly.

The author presumes throughout the article that the leaders are upright and honest men of high morals. When a politician gets his family involved in his campaign of lies and degradation (sp?), you know this man is anything but trustworthy or moral.

In one of the debates, Kerry didn't flinch to make his Biblical views known...Bush was very hesitant. Now which is the better one to choose? The one promoting himself to the Christian community or the one too scared to? Bush could by all intents and purposes realize that religion has no place in politics and so his hesitance...we don't know.

My daughter (14yrs old) asked me today if I voted. I responded by asking her a question: If you had the choice to be strangled to death or hung until dead, which would you choose? She answered she would choose to be hung. I then asked what the difference in outcome would be...none. So it is in choosing the lesser of two evils. I told her I don't vote because I trust God to put his man in power. I don't believe God needs my help in choosing the next crook to lead the U.S.

In my thinking...the more crooked the better things are for Christians...this would only hasten Christ's return...isn't that our hope?

We know God does not tell Christians which way to vote...in fact some believe one to be better than the other...and vice versa. So we know God is not "talking" to any Christians about the vote.

The article also mentions that it is our Christian duty to make the nation more moral. What a bunch of hogwash IMHO. Our duty as Christians is to spread the Gospel...firstly to our family and then to those around us. Anything more is of no importance. God's will...will be done.

Proverbs 22:6 NIV wrote:Train a child in the way he should go,
and when he is old he will not turn from it.

If we stick to this, the moral conduct of society changes without need of secular laws!

Anyway...are there other thoughts on this?
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BavarianWheels wrote:However, the author does not take into account that all politicians are crooked and hardly "Christian" even though they promote themselves as such.

That's a hasty generalisation just like all Christians are hypocrites. I personally think your statements are just a brush off as you don't really care. And I think Christians should care about the world around them. Regardless of the questionability of president's affiliation to Christianity, one can still examine the issues each side advocates, and make decisions based on this on which would better fit their own worldview.

I understand from here in Australia, both have stated clear opinions on moral issues—Bush taking a pro-life stance on abortion, and anti-cloning and anti-embryonic stemcell research stance. Whether morality should wholly dictate an election is another question, but I think it should make a large part of ones decision. Especially considering whoever gets voted in this time will get to decide up to four of the nine Supreme Court justices who will be retiring during the next presidential term. To quote, "Supreme Court justices, however, serve for life, and they are the ones who decide on issues like abortion, gay "marriages," human cloning, harvesting babies for stem-cell research, revoking the tax exemption of churches, removing “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance and “In God We Trust” from our money." (http://www.cbn.com/SpiritualLife/perspe ... anVote.asp) Surely, Christians should care about such issues? The easy way out is to just convince yourself it doesn't really matter.

If you ever have the chance, look at the Roman emperor Constantine. He proclaimed himself Christian, even if he had far from Christian beliefs (much, much further removed than Bush). Yet, he did much for Christianity and serves as an example of just how important leaders can be.

BW wrote:The article also mentions that it is our Christian duty to make the nation more moral. What a bunch of hogwash IMHO. Our duty as Christians is to spread the Gospel...firstly to our family and then to those around us. Anything more is of no importance. God's will...will be done.

Where does it say that? And isn't it a good thing furthering Christian values where possible? Don't you think it is a bit short-sighted to think what becomes set in legislation by the government won't influence your family and the people around you later on.

Anyway, I think I'll try reserve further comment as I don't really want to argue about it. But, then these are important issues perhaps worth having it out on. Ultimately my position comes down to one of that Christians should care about issues around them, and making an influence to the world around them where ever possible.

Kurieuo.

The way Christ carries out his work on earth at present is through His body - The Church.

Our objective is to preach the gospel - Voting right can ensure a sustainable atmosphere for this. Who's to know how long it will be before this is outlawed - even in the US! Liberals will hasten that process.

Another way of looking at it - What is being done by not voting - You are allowing the voices of other people who might not have the best interests of society at heart, to be heard, above yours. Is that dangerously close to the sin of ommision? I'm sure Christians would agree that Christian voters have the best interests of society at heart.

Reading the book of Kings from a prophetic point of view - It is observed that the morals of the nation followed the morals of the leader. In the press in England, Christianity is being mentioned as one of the driving forces in the US elections.

Proverbs 22:6 NIV wrote:
Train a child in the way he should go,
and when he is old he will not turn from it.

If we stick to this, the moral conduct of society changes without need of secular laws!

That is a proverb - not a promise from God. There are always exceptions to proverbs. Don't think kids these days are being encouraged by society to follow the advice of parents.

RGeeB wrote:The way Christ carries out his work on earth at present is through His body - The Church.

What scripture upholds this specific to politics and government...and further, where does it say Christ's work is in politics?

RGeeB wrote:Our objective is to preach the gospel - Voting right can ensure a sustainable atmosphere for this. Who's to know how long it will be before this is outlawed - even in the US! Liberals will hasten that process.

Does a Christian really believe that our actions directly affect God's will? Is God not soverign? Have we not known that the end is already "in the bag"? We are just "playing out the clock", if you will. The game is over. The winning team has taken out their starters and is giving the inexperienced some experience. It doesn't matter that the opposing team is making more points with the rookie players in...there is no way they can make enough points to win with the time left. There is no 10 point line!

Is not everything in God's eyes predestined and already laid out?

If God uses the Christian community to put his [God's] man in office, can you tell me why Christians are not ALL voting the same way?

RGeeB wrote:Another way of looking at it - What is being done by not voting - You are allowing the voices of other people who might not have the best interests of society at heart, to be heard, above yours. Is that dangerously close to the sin of ommision? I'm sure Christians would agree that Christian voters have the best interests of society at heart.

Again...possibly a unified Christian vote would make a difference, but that simply does not happen.

If Christian voters have the best interest of society at heart, why are they not united on every issue in this campaign season?

I have the best interest of society at heart. I believe the worse the leader is, the faster the end will come. What better interest is there than that? The truth is, for the most part Christians are afraid of the beginning of the end coming. They don't realize, as much as they are told, that we are at the cusp. They want to slow things down because "God would not want so and so in office for this belief and that..." or "we still have work to do" or the best I hear is the fear of not having disappeared yet and so it must be that we need to slow things down. (the rapture...as in Left Behind).

RGeeB wrote:Reading the book of Kings from a prophetic point of view - It is observed that the morals of the nation followed the morals of the leader. In the press in England, Christianity is being mentioned as one of the driving forces in the US elections.

This could be very true. Take a look at my last post about the tactics displayed by both presidential candidates in their campaign. It was about lies and deceit, smear campaigns and jabs. Neither one could stand up and be a man because neither one is a real Man! Both are the exact opposite of a "moral leader."

If this is not seen, then we are more blind than I thought.

Proverbs 22:6 NIV wrote:
Train a child in the way he should go,
and when he is old he will not turn from it.

RGeeB wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:If we stick to this, the moral conduct of society changes without need of secular laws!

That is a proverb - not a promise from God. There are always exceptions to proverbs. Don't think kids these days are being encouraged by society to follow the advice of parents.

If this is not true...how did something not inspired get into the scriptures?

You have it wrong, RGeeB...with all due respect, it is not society's duty to raise children. Contrary to that not so intelligent prior first lady, it doesn't "take community" or however she put it.

The only thing I find is, "Render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's." Our vote is not an obligation to government...it is a right. We have the right to withhold our vote. There is no law that says every American citizen is required to vote. If there was, then that would fall into the "Ceasar's" category.

Firstly, I would agree that the Christian's greatest desire is to see Christ return to reign physically on this earth.

Now, the way to hasten that return, I believe, is not being passive. Preaching the gospel to everyone is a pre-requirement. So, we can play our part in creating/preserving an atmosphere to do so. We'll still have to do it regardless of the conditions under which we have to do it. So, for our sakes, lets play the part in keeping them favourable. This may mean making a choice for a lesser 'immoral' person (speaking in your terms).

If this is not true...how did something not inspired get into the scriptures?

There is an example in the Bible of the righteous King Josiah who followed his fathers - King Mannaseh and King Amon who were the most wicked in Judah. Wonder what they taught Josiah as a kid - wickedness or righeousness?
Or, what hope is there for kids raised by ungodly parents? Is it true to say that they will always walk in the ungodly paths of their folks? I hope not, for the power of Christ's sake!

Proverbs are principles to live by, not conditional promises of God. I won't quote examples but a study of the observations in Ecclesiastes shows that there are direct contradictions with the statements in Proverbs.

RGeeB wrote:Proverbs are principles to live by, not conditional promises of God. I won't quote examples but a study of the observations in Ecclesiastes shows that there are direct contradictions with the statements in Proverbs.

Just wanted to quote for agreement. I'm actually taking OT Survey right now, and we just covered this. Proverbs are advice that holds in normal circumstances. Job and Eccl. talk about abnormal circumstances . . . it's when we interpret them outside of those contexts that we get things very wrong.

It's sad to think how many parents have been beaten up by themselves and the church over that verse. It's just not an absolute promise. It's a proverb--a divinely inspired proverb, yes, but a proverb, nonetheless.

RGeeB wrote:Firstly, I would agree that the Christian's greatest desire is to see Christ return to reign physically on this earth.

shouldn't that read "a dispensationalist Christian's greatest desire..."?

K: you mentioned Constantine. I'm not so sure he was a blessing. Yes the persecutions stopped, but then the politicalization of the Church began....and so the Church became more about political power and less about Christ and so entered the Papal claims...which led to abuses...which led to the reformation...which led to very nasty religious wars...but then again maybe he was a blessing.

I believe the bible tells us to pray for our leaders. Yes it did not say vote, but I guess, by praying, we're showing an interest in political affairs & at the same time seeking wisdom for those at the top. Isn't that in a way influencing the country's leadership. If so, why stop there, why not vote.

The early churches voted for people to serve tables, I see no reason why we shouldn't vote to elect the best (among the worst...if it comes to that) to serve our needs (national, etc.)
Saul was put in place thru popularity. He wasn't the best, but God let it be & David does not dare to touch the Anointed of God.

To think that things happen whether we do anything or not, is to promote passive faith...too dangerous an approach for me.

The edge wrote:I believe the bible tells us to pray for our leaders. Yes it did not say vote, but I guess, by praying, we're showing an interest in political affairs & at the same time seeking wisdom for those at the top. Isn't that in a way influencing the country's leadership. If so, why stop there, why not vote.

The early churches voted for people to serve tables, I see no reason why we shouldn't vote to elect the best (among the worst...if it comes to that) to serve our needs (national, etc.)
Saul was put in place thru popularity. He wasn't the best, but God let it be & David does not dare to touch the Anointed of God.

To think that things happen whether we do anything or not, is to promote passive faith...too dangerous an approach for me.

Are we not told to love our enemies and pray for those that persecute us...bless those that curse us, and pray for those who mistreat us? (Mat. 5:44, Luke 6:28 ) I don't see anywhere that we should join in their practices.

About government, we only see, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

Voting is a right and not an obligation to a citizen. Taxes are an obligation. We are to submit to secular law (while it doesn't go against God's law) and pay our taxes as they are a requirement to be a citizen.

Why even go with the popularity factor? Isn't the path to heaven narrow and the gate small?

Our worries should not be on things that are God's responsibility.

Romans 13:1 NIV wrote:Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Romans 13:6,7 NIV wrote:This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Where does voting fit in? In respect? No. Honor? No. Respect and honor come because God establishes their authority. What we owe them is because God placed them there...not because we voted.
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