Islam

Alfredo · Post by **Alfredo** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:22 pm

Hey all,

I'm a devout catholic so im not trying to convert anyone. I do have some questions about islams and christians take on it. If its not true, how could a 7th century desert arab make so many scientific truths? Such as stating that the moon gives off reflected light where is the bible states it is its own light source. It has been giving me some doubt, by i trust my faith in Christ the Redemeer is unshakable.

Other than that i've been lerking around the forum for quite some time and love it here. I truly enjoy http://www.godandscience.org and it has cleared up some questions i've always had.

In Christ's Mercy,

Alfredo.

August · Post by **August** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:08 pm

Hi Alfredo, welcome on board.

Can you please post some references from the Koran on where it makes specific true scientific claims? I have seen where it says that at night the sun goes to rest in a muddy puddle, and that a fly carries disease on the one wing but the cure on the other.

Also, I cannot find any biblical reference that shows that the moon gives it's own light. Can you please provide the chapter and verse?

As for the possibility that there are some scientific thruths in the Koran, it is possible since there was already some facts determined at the time, and it may have been incorporated into the Koran. There are ancient maps of the moon found in Ireland, for example, so there was much known about the moon already at the time. Also, the Koran was only finalized about 300 years after Muhammad, allowing for more time to have some facts included.

AttentionKMartShoppers · Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:27 pm

As August and I found out

, there are several scientific blunders in Islam teaching...1) the sun sets into a lake/pond, 2) flies have a wing that carries an antidote to whatever is on the other wing, 3) Satan sleeps in your nose at night...to name a few. And, do realize, that you can't take all Bible verses at face value...especially the poetic verses (though many of the "unscientific" ones to turn out to be true if you read them right)

Alfredo · Post by **Alfredo** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:18 pm

This is how they write off the "sun setting" That this verse in the Quaran states where the man was looking at the sun from a muddy swamp. The Quaran does state the big bang, the universe was created over billions of years, the moon is reflected light, the water cycle, there are a lot. Its really throwing me for a loop. Questions...

Alfredo · Post by **Alfredo** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:06 am

I have always beilfed christ to be the son of god, not god himself. http://www.godandscience.org states he is god. if jesus was god. . why would the devil be so stupid as to think he could offer the world to god. . being the world is supposed to be owned by god anyway?

Christian2 · Post by **Christian2** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:25 am

Hello Alfredo,

I spent about 3-4 months researching the so-called "Science in the Qur'an." I found that what the Muslims do is take a verse in the Qur'an and read science back into it. Also, the science that they claim to be science in most, if not all cases, either was known before the advent of Muhammad or is just plain wrong. You might want to take a look at the following rebuttals websites and I think you will know what I mean.

Rebuttals to Science in the Qur'an can be found here:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/

and here:

http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/embryo.html

There are many links on these sites.

If you would like to take a look at what is claimed to be science in the Bible, take a look at these sites:

http://www.quiknet.com/~dfrench/evidence/science.htm

http://www.av1611.org/amazing.html

You said:

The Quaran does state the big bang

As I understand it, the Big Bang is just a theory and not all scientists agree on this subject although the majority do. I did find a claim that the "Big Bang" is in the Bible too. I'll have to look for the article I read and post it later when I find it.

The problem with "science" in the Qur'an or in the the Bible is that science changes as scientists make more discoveries. Let's take the big bang for instance. If the Muslims claim that the Qur'an supports the Big Bang, then what happens if the Big Bang is disproven sometime in the future?

Addition: The article I was looking for about the Bible and the Big Bang was not hard to find.

http://www.reasons.org/resources/fff/20 ... t_it_first

Alfredo · Post by **Alfredo** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:45 pm

Thank You!!!!!!!!!!!!

That has cleared up a lot

The Big Bang is fact essentially. It also proves god. I don't see why we should be against it. It soldifies our beliefs.

Alfredo · Post by **Alfredo** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:33 pm

I need some help......

I've never truly understood that Jesus is God. I have always beileved he is the Son of God. God, i don't think so. Islam says he is only a prophet that never wished to be God himself. How could jesus be god and yet god told us not to worship anyone but him? Other than that, i would be a muslim write now, if it wasn't for that one passage in the bible warning us all about "other false gospels" but what about Paul? Didn't he meddle with Christ's true teachings? Im waying out the evidence, and iam truly lost.

In need of guidance,

Alfredo

AttentionKMartShoppers · Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:11 pm

Alfredo wrote:I need some help......

I've never truly understood that Jesus is God. I have always beileved he is the Son of God. God, i don't think so. Islam says he is only a prophet that never wished to be God himself. How could jesus be god and yet god told us not to worship anyone but him? Other than that, i would be a muslim write now, if it wasn't for that one passage in the bible warning us all about "other false gospels" but what about Paul? Didn't he meddle with Christ's true teachings? Im waying out the evidence, and iam truly lost.

In need of guidance,

Alfredo

Jesus is not another God, He is God. God is a Trinity-God, Son, Holy Spirit. All God. Kinda like the US federal government...Executive, Legislative, and Judicial Branch...but still one government (anyone got any good books on hand explaining the Trinity?)

(As far as I know,) Paul didn't meddle with Christ's true teachings. I think such claims belong to the liberal theologians, who claim Jesus never claimed to be God and the gospel writers and the likes distorted and added on to what Jesus said.

Christian2 · Post by **Christian2** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:04 am

Hi Alfredo,

I've never truly understood that Jesus is God. I have always beileved he is the Son of God.

What do you mean that you have always believed that Jesus is the "Son of God"? What do you understand by that term--"Son of God?"

God, i don't think so. Islam says he is only a prophet that never wished to be God himself.

I think some Jews now recognize that Jesus was "some kind of a prophet." The fact that Jesus was THE Messiah makes Him more than "only a prophet." The Qur'an calls Jesus Messiah, but the author of the Qur'an didn't seem to have a clue what that meant.

How could jesus be god and yet god told us not to worship anyone but him?

There is no conflict here Alfredo. We do worship only one God and don't forget Jesus accepted worship--He was worshipped--and if He was only a prophet it was His duty and obligation to correct those who worshipped Him and He never, ever did.

Other than that, i would be a muslim write now, if it wasn't for that one passage in the bible warning us all about "other false gospels"

Please excuse my bluntness here, Alfredo, but that is just about the poorest reason to become a Muhammadian Muslim that I have heard.

but what about Paul? Didn't he meddle with Christ's true teachings? Im waying out the evidence, and iam truly lost.

I have been studing this issue reading David Wenham's book, "Paul: Follower of Jesus or Founder of Christianity?" which is considered the most extensive treatment of this subject currently available. His conclusion is that Paul was a follower of Jesus--a servant of Jesus. Historian NT Wright says the same thing.

A soon to be theologian who writes articles for Answering-Islam has put together an analysis comparing what Jesus taught/said and what Paul taught/said. Perhaps you would like to look them over.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Wales/jesus_paul.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/Wales/je ... l_more.htm

Other than that, Jesus said He would be the last of the prophets:

Luke 16: 16"The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it."

What this means to me is that anyone calling themselves a prophet after Jesus is a false prophet.

And don't forget this:

John 4:21-22, Jesus replied, "Believe me, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father here or in Jerusalem. You Samaritans know so little about the one you worship, while we Jews know all about him, for salvation comes through the Jews." (NLT)

Notice Jesus doesn't say salvation comes only to the Jews, but through the Jews. Salvation for the whole world will come through the Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Muhammad was not a Jew.

Shalom

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:38 am

Alfredo wrote:I've never truly understood that Jesus is God. I have always beileved he is the Son of God. God, i don't think so. Islam says he is only a prophet that never wished to be God himself. How could jesus be god and yet god told us not to worship anyone but him?

Hi Alfredo,

If you can open your mind and just read these passages, I believe they are entirely clear on Jesus being God. I have posted most of this quite a while ago. This is a fairly extensive, so please take the time to read and understand what I'm saying.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Notice, that only God is I AM. I AM reveals the timeless and infinite nature of God. God told Moses that His name is I AM. There's nothing else by which to define God. He just is. How was Jesus hanging around before Abraham if He is not timeless and infinite?

John 1:1-14
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Just read it my friend... "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."

Clearly, beyond ANY reasonable doubt, Jesus is the Word that became flesh, and Jesus was with God and Jesus WAS God.

Really I feel that the above passage alone proves Jesus' divinity... But there's much more.

Revelation 1:12-17
12I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,”dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp doubleedged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

The First and the Last, the Son of Man, says he was dead. Was the Father ever dead? Nope. Is anyone but God "the first and the last"? Nope.

But just in case you wanted the passage:
Isaiah 44:6
"This is what the LORD says - Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

So how can two beings (The Living One who was dead, and the LORD Almighty) BOTH claim to be the beginning and the end? Doesn't it stand to reason that there's only ONE beginning and end? If the Lord came first, how can the Living One be the beginning? In my mind, the ONLY reasonable explanation is that Jesus and God are one and the same - just like Jesus says. (John 10:30)

And finally, aside from all that, I cannot understand how anyone but God Himself has the authority to redeem our sins. All sins are tresspassed against God - how can anyone else forgive those sins? It's the only way that salvation even makes sense...

Evidence for God from Science

Islam

Islam

Afredo, about that science in the Qur'an

TO Alfredo