Evidence for God from Science

I have just come back from seeing Andrews Lloyd Webber's Jesus Christ Superstar. Fantastic show. For those of you who don't know the story of Jesus last days is shown from the point of view of Judas in this musical. Anyway - brilliant show - but it got mne thinking - Is Judas in heaven?

The reason I ask because in the bible and certainly in the way it is protrayed in this musical Judas is remorseful for what he has done. And his role in this is essential anyway. He is so sorry for what he done that he hangs himself?

Which makes me wonder whether he was forgiven or not?

What do people think?

Silvertusk.

I don't know, but I will say this: it is not Judas' betrayal of Jesus that would cause him to go to hell, but rather his refusal to accept Jesus as saviour. Each of us has betrayed God, so Judas' sin is no more unforgiveable than any of ours. Now, whether he accepted God's grace is a whole other question, and I have no idea.

Felgar wrote:I don't know, but I will say this: it is not Judas' betrayal of Jesus that would cause him to go to hell, but rather his refusal to accept Jesus as saviour. Each of us has betrayed God, so Judas' sin is no more unforgiveable than any of ours. Now, whether he accepted God's grace is a whole other question, and I have no idea.

Agreed - but that is what I thnk he did. He was obviously remorseful about his actions.

If all sins are equal - then surely Peters was just as bad as Judas - yet Jesus forgave Peter. I always wondered if Judas didn't kill himself - would Jesus have forgiven him as well?

Silvertusk wrote:

Felgar wrote:I don't know, but I will say this: it is not Judas' betrayal of Jesus that would cause him to go to hell, but rather his refusal to accept Jesus as saviour. Each of us has betrayed God, so Judas' sin is no more unforgiveable than any of ours. Now, whether he accepted God's grace is a whole other question, and I have no idea.

Agreed - but that is what I thnk he did. He was obviously remorseful about his actions.

If all sins are equal - then surely Peters was just as bad as Judas - yet Jesus forgave Peter. I always wondered if Judas didn't kill himself - would Jesus have forgiven him as well?

I think it is not unreasonable to assume that Jesus did forgive Judas. The tone of His interchange with Judas at the supper doesn't indicate any real animosity and Judas' actions were necessary for His plan to unfold.

I do agree that it was ultimately up to Judas to repent and believe, I think it is quite possible he did. Also for Judas to be eternally damned would be a victory for the devil, I doubt the Lord would allow that.

j316 wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:

Felgar wrote:I don't know, but I will say this: it is not Judas' betrayal of Jesus that would cause him to go to hell, but rather his refusal to accept Jesus as saviour. Each of us has betrayed God, so Judas' sin is no more unforgiveable than any of ours. Now, whether he accepted God's grace is a whole other question, and I have no idea.

Agreed - but that is what I thnk he did. He was obviously remorseful about his actions.

If all sins are equal - then surely Peters was just as bad as Judas - yet Jesus forgave Peter. I always wondered if Judas didn't kill himself - would Jesus have forgiven him as well?

I think it is not unreasonable to assume that Jesus did forgive Judas. The tone of His interchange with Judas at the supper doesn't indicate any real animosity and Judas' actions were necessary for His plan to unfold.

I do agree that it was ultimately up to Judas to repent and believe, I think it is quite possible he did. Also for Judas to be eternally damned would be a victory for the devil, I doubt the Lord would allow that.

I agree - and it also shows the lengths to which God's Length will stretch.

The answer is "no". Judas is in Hell.

Acts 1:25
"...to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”

Psalm 69:28
"Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous." (This speaks of Judas, see verse 25 and Acts 1:20)

Matthew 26:24
"The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

God's Grace is enormous, but not limitless. He has mercy on whom he wills, and whom He wills He hardens" (Romans 9:18)

puritan lad wrote:God's Grace is enormous, but not limitless.

Incorrect. God's infinite Grace was demonstrated in the sacrifice of His perfect son on our behalf. The result of that can only be complete absolution of sin for all those who accept it. Were it any other way, then there would be sin that the blood of Jesus could not conquer and ultimately, Jesus would not have had power over death itself.

God, by very definition, is greater than sin. And the offering for Jesus to redeem our sin has already been fullfilled. Therefore we have been made righteous through Jesus. Romans 3:21-31, 5:15-21 The only other alternative is salvation through works - the very thing that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for, and that which is completely contrary to the Gospel of Christ. For if we depend on any fashion of being good to justify our salvation, then we cannot truly grasp the depths of our own sin and therefore, cannot accept forgiveness of them. Paul says it all: all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 3:21-24
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Notice that these are not 1-line snippets - these are the very foundation of the Lord's message throughout Romans. Chapter after chapter are devoted to making clear that God's grace is our salvation, and not our own good nature.

Felgar wrote:

puritan lad wrote:God's Grace is enormous, but not limitless.

Incorrect. God's infinite Grace was demonstrated in the sacrifice of His perfect son on our behalf. The result of that can only be complete absolution of sin for all those who accept it. Were it any other way, then there would be sin that the blood of Jesus could not conquer and ultimately, Jesus would not have had power over death itself.

Incorrect. While there is no sin that the blood of Jesus COULD not conquer, there is sin the His Blood DID not cover. Judas's sin was one of those. (I won't go into a prolonged discussion here about the "unpardonable" sin, but such a sin does exist.)

Felgar wrote:God's grace is our salvation, and not our own good nature.

I agree wholeheartedly. Let me ask you, "Is everybody going to heaven?" If not, then there are sins that Christ did not pay for. If He paid for ALL the sins of ALL the people, then no one would ever go to Hell.

Back to the original question, Judas is clearly in Hell (meaning that Christ did not pay for Judas's sins.) Judas is paying for his own sins for eternity.

puritan lad wrote:Let me ask you, "Is everybody going to heaven?" If not, then there are sins that Christ did not pay for. If He paid for ALL the sins of ALL the people, then no one would ever go to Hell.

"This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Clearly not everyone believes.

puritan lad wrote:Back to the original question, Judas is clearly in Hell (meaning that Christ did not pay for Judas's sins.) Judas is paying for his own sins for eternity.

I disgree that he is clearly in Hell. It depends on whether or not he believed (which implies acceptance) in Jesus' salvation. The bible is unclear on his eternal fate - clearly he suffered terribly as a mortal. Even if it can be shown that Judas is in Hell, then the reason is because he rejected God's grace, not because he sinned.

Felgar wrote:from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Clearly not everyone believes.

No one can obtain that faith unless he is first born again (John 3:3). That happens not of our will, but of God's (John 1:12-13).

Felgar wrote:I disgree that he is clearly in Hell.

Then where is "his own place" (see above)? Why was His name was blotted out of the Book of Life, and not to be named with the righteous? Why did Jesus say that he would be better off if he had never been born? Hard to reconcile that with the idea that he is currently in heaven.

Felgar wrote:It depends on whether or not he believed (which implies acceptance) in Jesus' salvation. The bible is unclear on his eternal fate - clearly he suffered terribly as a mortal. Even if it can be shown that Judas is in Hell, then the reason is because he rejected God's grace, not because he sinned.

Ah, the familiar "acceptance of salvation" most often quoted by Arminians but totally foreign to the Bible. I thought that you said that we were saved by grace alone. Now, we have to "accept" it. Which is it? Grace or works?

Yes, you guessed it. I'm a Five point Calvinist (notice my username.) That, however, would fit better in another thread.

puritan lad wrote:No one can obtain that faith unless he is first born again (John 3:3). That happens not of our will, but of God's (John 1:12-13)

That's not what John 3:3 says, and note that 1:12 starts "Yet to all who received Him"

But you're right, the conversation is off-topic, though one's philosophy on that will surely dictate one's answer to the question about Judas' fate. I suggest you find one of our great 10+ page threads on free-will or OSAS. For in-depth discussions of the matter has already occured and you may wish to add your own thoughts.

Done that. http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 4594#14594

I'm curious though, as to how you think Judas could be better off if he hadn't been born if you think he could be in heaven.

puritan lad wrote:Done that. http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 4594#14594

I'm curious though, as to how you think Judas could be better off if he hadn't been born if you think he could be in heaven.

If he died as a fetus he would be in heaven and not have had to suffer the torment of his final days and of his death.

Felgar wrote:

puritan lad wrote:Done that. http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 4594#14594

I'm curious though, as to how you think Judas could be better off if he hadn't been born if you think he could be in heaven.

If he died as a fetus he would be in heaven and not have had to suffer the torment of his final days and of his death.

Says Who?