phoebe43 wrote:From the point of view of an agnostic who really wants to believe, I just don't see the logic or "goodness" in God setting up this "training" on earth where we go through sorrow and suffering to learn to love God in some "new" world/heaven. You know, little infants that are killed, molested, mistreated, etc. didn't sign on for this "training." And, it seems like some things are just tragic...maybe what a lot of people are trying to do is create a reason to explain suffering and thus invent a God who set up this training...sorry to offend. I think, if there is a God, that he/she wants logic to be used b/c humans have brains and I just don't understand why the helpless suffer. Another issue is those that endure suffering and never learn from it nor does anyone else.
May I suggest to you that the primary purpose isn't "training"? That would imply that you preexisted. God can't send you to training if you don't exist yet!
The fact that God can use the evil in this world to train us for future righteousness is only a sign of God's goodness. He can take something evil and use it for good, which I find to be a far higher view of His sovereignty than the rather silly idea that He wanted all this to happen so that we would be better "fit" for the next life. Thus, we have to explain evil as something not planned, not intended, and not desired, but something that can be used nonetheless.
Let me suggest a rather simple answer to your question.
I believe that EVERY bit of evil and suffering would cease IMMEDIATEDLY if everyone on this planet were to see their need for Christ and turn to Him now (that seems to be the biblical view, anyway). What is evil? In philosophical terms, it is a lack of goodness--a privation, if you like. Since good is that which God is, then evil is ultimately a lack of God. Murder, genocide, sickness, death . . . all these things are a lack of God, or more properly speaking, a disconnection from the right fellowship with God. Thus, to the degree that God is lacking, evil abounds.
The fundamental premise is this: you NEED God. Without Him, your life is worthless, meaningless, and an utter waste of time and space. Worse than that, you are only taking up the space and resources that could be someone else's! What is the point of life if there is no God? What is the point of YOUR life? There isn't one. We are just passing the time while we have it to pass. There was an eternity of nothing before us and there will be an eternity of nothing after us. All is meaningless.
Yet with God, there is goodness, purpose, meaning, love, etc. The great problem with man is that we don't see that, and in fact, we deny it. We deny our need for Him. And it is just here that the answer to the question of evil is found.
We NEED God, for the degree to which we lack Him we suffer evil. Yet we DENY our need for Him. God, rather than forcing Himself upon us,
is letting us live in accordance with our belief, namely, that we don't need Him. God is letting us have the consequences of our choice. The Bible teaches that at the end of time, we will all see our need for Him, and He will be vindicated in His claim of necessity. All will voluntarily confess, after viewing the entirety of human history, that He was right and we were wrong. Our experience--the evidence--will be irrefutable.
Why, then, is there evil? Because we are trying to live without God. The day we return to Him, He will fix it all. We demand life without Him, so by and large, He lets us have our way. What is really funny is the fact that we shake our fists at Him and declare our independence, and then get mad at HIM when things go poorly and ask why HE didn't do something about it. Well, which is it? Do we need Him or not?
As you don't want to offend us, I don't want to offend you, but the irony of your question is that the question itself is what produces the suffering. As long as we keep our backs turned to Him, we will be like the child who is trying to tie his shoes but doesn't know how. God is simply waiting patiently until we throw our hands up in frustration and ask Him to fix it. When we do that, He will, and all will be well for all of eternity.
With that answer, let me turn the question on you:
If God doesn't exist, why in the world would you have the idea that this is anything other than normal? Your entire question presupposes that things "ought not" be this way. But does a fish feel wet? No, for all it knows is the water. Yet where did you get the idea things are evil? Do animals complain over rape and murder? Do they question why things are this way? No. You may say it is simply because they don't have reason, but what in the realm of reason would lead us to suggest that things ought to be any different than they are? There is nothing. It would seem to me that your desire for a better world stems from the fact that you know that this could be a better world, but that knowledge is rooted in a knowledge of goodness--objective, inherent goodness. Yet where did such an idea come from? If God doesn't exist, what is inherent goodness? How could such exist? If God does not exist, as Wayne admitted in the thread that Byblos linked you to in your introductory post, then there is no such thing as inherent goodness or inherent evil. Nothing is really right. Nothing is really wrong. But if that is the case, then nothing "ought" to be any particular way.
Yet I believe that you know inside of yourself that things really ought to be some way other than they are. There is such a thing as goodness, and the world we live in has some of that, but precious little. But again, if there is no God, then it makes no rational sense at all to say that things ought to be any different than they are; it is irrational to complain about the suffering in this world; it is nonsensical to say there is anything such as evil at all. Only if you acknowledge God's existence can any of those things that you have already recognized as true in this thread make sense.
The problem, then, is not how God could exist with so much evil in this world. The problem is how evil can exist in this world if there is no such thing as God.
God bless
